Franchise Ranking (Treliving Era)

[Roof-Daddy]

Anyone who thinks Treliving is the problem with the Flames is dead wrong IMO

He's not perfect, nobody is, but he's easily the best GM in Canada forced to shovel #### against the tide.

Trades constantly getting blocked by players with NTC's

A future Norris winner and two all-star, prime aged 100+ point wingers force their way out of the org in just a few years. The only other GM that has to deal with that crap on a regular basis is Cheveldayoff.

We're lucky to have him.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Here you go!

the numerical rankings are fair enough but by the eye test there are some pretty clear tiers that shake out (with the Flames in a clearly mediocre mushy middle tier) but for example there are two yikes tiers in the bottom that are really bad, and up top you have the always good in the regular season and have won a cup group, followed by either the sometimes good in the regular season but have won a cup, or always good in the regular season but only ok in the playoffs groups

[Mass_nerder]

It might be pretty interesting to do this same exercise for Feaster and Burkie and compare them.

[calgaryred]

If Edmonton never fluked out McDavid, I wonder if Edmonton and Buffalo switch spots

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by calgaryred

If Edmonton never fluked out McDavid I wonder if Edmonton and Buffalo switch spots

They absolutely do.

That pile of garbage team has the two leading scorers in the league, one of which is on pace for like 150 points or something, and they're barely in a playoff spot because Colorado is on a cup hangover.

[dino7c]

It's not an easy market to be a GM

Many of the best moves/players were blocked or lost due to geography. And the ones you manage to get/keep you need to pay more for.

[SuperMatt18]

Funny part is you don't get much of a different view if you just look at regular season standings over that time.

Tampa Bay: .661
Washington: .660
Boston: .633
Pittsburgh: .631
St. Louis: .625
Vegas: .622
Nashville: .608
Minnesota: .601
Florida: .596
NYR: .583
NYI: .579
Toronto: .574
Winnipeg: .573
Dallas: .571
Carolina: .571
Calgary: .570
Colorado: .565
Anaheim: .553
Columbus: .549
San Jose: .547
Chicago: .541
Los Angeles: .537
Philadelphia: .532
Edmonton: .526
Montreal: .523
Vancouver: .502
Ottawa: .484
Detroit: .468
New Jersey: .468
Arizona: .441
Buffalo .430

The similarities of Colorado and Calgary are interesting to me.

Both bad in 2013 and draft Mackinnon and Monahan that same year. Colorado had their "unexpected" playoff year in 2014, Flames had it in 2015. Both got elite wingers with early picks in later years in Rantanen & Tkachuk.

Biggest difference was probably that injuries derailed Monahan, while Mackinnon continued to develop. And that their 4th overall - Makar became elite, while the Flames 4th overall - Bennett is mostly average.

And the most frustrating part of the whole thing...if Adam Fox just signs here then we have our Makar. And if Nazim Kadri waives his NTC then we have him and Connor Brown instead of Brodie leaving as a UFA and Mark Jankowski. Two little things don't go the Flames way due purely to thing outside Treliving's control...and boom there is the difference between the Flames and Avs in their quest to build a contender.

Honestly I think it would be a big mistake to move on from Treliving. Roof-Daddy's post above is bang on, looking at the process instead of the results and I think you see that we have a pretty good GM.

[Gazza]

He has been the GM since 2014 and the amount of playoff appearances can be counted on one hand. The amount of playoff round wins is even less.

Several coaches have been hired under his watch.

Not sure why he would warrant continuing in his role. Unless mediocrity is okay. This feels like 1996-1999 all over again.

Sent from my SM-S901W using Tapatalk

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I blame 14-15 season for this. I do think after the trades of Iginla, Bouwmeester, and retirement of Kipper that the plan was to rebuild.

They were bad in 12-13 and they drafted Monahan at 6, bad again in 13-14 and drafted Bennett at 4 and looked poised for another top 5 pick in 2014-2015.

But unexpectedly Gio become a Norris candidate at 30, Brodie and him made an elite top pair, Gaudreau had a 64 point rookie season, Monahan scored 31, Hudler thrived with the two of them, and all of a sudden they won a round in the playoffs.

Sometimes it's forgotten but the Flames still sold on Glencross and Baertschi for picks that deadline and even with the strong year they still were committed in season to a longer build.

But my guess is the ownership mandate changed that offseason - they got the taste of two rounds of playoff revenue and didn't want to give that up again.

Even then though when I look back at it the Flames still had enough top of the draft talent in their lineup that constituted a "re-build". In the end they did have a top 5 pick from that 2015 draft in Hanifin on the roster.

Lindholm: 2013 - 5
Monahan: 2013 - 6
Bennett: 2014 - 4
Hanifin: 2015 - 5
Tkachuk: 2016 - 6

Plus Gaudreau, Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane as drafted pieces that over performed their draft slot. Unfortunately Adam Fox should have been part of this too.

In some ways the Flames issue has been we haven't been mismanaged bad enough - it takes real skill to suck bad enough to get top 3 picks.

Yeah, this really the difference.

2013: Instead of Monahan if we draft MacKinnon or Barkov - how much better are we?
2014: Ekblad or Draisaitl rather than Bennett - how much better are?
2015: We can have the Hamilton argument just given the timing. Patience? We likely don't make that trade. Who knows how that changes stuff.
2016: Matthews or Laine Vs. Tkachuk? We did good based on position, but also ended up with a player who bailed on the org.

That degree of "bad" that we were close to but just missed out on hurt us for sure.

[Strange Brew]

The scoring is subjective obviously but the raw numbers show just how far the team is from the top echelon.

So to me that reinforces my belief that there is little risk in trying something new. I agree with Bingo the game 7 win was nice last year. Well no reason not to want those kinds of memories just a little more regularly.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Gazza

He has been the GM since 2014 and the amount of playoff appearances can be counted on one hand. The amount of playoff round wins is even less.

Several coaches have been hired under his watch.

Not sure why he would warrant continuing in his role. Unless mediocrity is okay. This feels like 1996-1999 all over again.

Sent from my SM-S901W using Tapatalk

96-99 when they didn't make the playoffs lol

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by looooob

ok seems about right. Montreal gets a bump for the random cup run (which to be fair did happen and was super fun for their fans I'm sure, but really probably didn't reflect roster construction)


Winnipeg at times maligned- and even they are mediocre at best league wide but they do a good job given their constraints

I wonder if 5/7 of them being in the middle reflects the pressure of the Canadian market (or perceived pressure) that you have to make the playoffs every year.

[Mr.Coffee]

Poor Buffalo…

[dino7c]

Jets also had players and assets from the Atlanta years in this stretch

[Northendzone]

geez bingo - you clearly have a love for stats and spreadsheets and a lot of free time to put it all together

[SuperMatt18]

A bit off topic but ties to the overall discussion about GMs...since Darryl Sutter was fired as GM the Flames and our amateur scouting under Tod Button have been a top 5 drafting team in the NHL from 2011-2022.

Looking at hockeyprospecting.com's way of classifying these things:

Stars Drafted:
Winnipeg: 5
Colorado: 4
Calgary: 4 (Monahan, Gaudreau, Fox, Tkachuk)
Edmonton: 4
Toronto: 4

NHLer Drafted:
Edmonton: 13
Carolina: 13
Buffalo: 13
Calgary: 12
Tampa Bay: 11

And they've done that while having the 24th most picks in the draft during that time (67), and no top 3 picks.

So really kudos to TOD Button and his staff. Hopefully we see this continue and guys like Pelletier, Zary, Wolf, and Coronato get a look soon.

On the sad side of things though if you look at "Superstars" Drafted the Flames have by far the most with 3 out of 26 superstars, and 2 of only 8 superstars taken outside the first round. Unfortunately those three are Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Fox - so none play in this organization anymore.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

A bit off topic but ties to the overall discussion about GMs...since Darryl Sutter was fired as GM the Flames and our amateur scouting under Craig Button have been a top 5 drafting team in the NHL from 2011-2022.

Looking at hockeyprospecting.com's way of classifying these things:

Stars Drafted:
Winnipeg: 5
Colorado: 4
Calgary: 4 (Monahan, Gaudreau, Fox, Tkachuk)
Edmonton: 4
Toronto: 4

NHLer Drafted:
Edmonton: 13
Carolina: 13
Buffalo: 13
Calgary: 12
Tampa Bay: 11

And they've done that while having the 24th most picks in the draft during that time (67), and no top 3 picks.

So really kudos to Craig Button and his staff. Hopefully we see this continue and guys like Pelletier, Zary, Wolf, and Coronato get a look soon.

On the sad side of things though if you look at "Superstars" Drafted the Flames have by far the most with 3 out of 26 superstars, and 2 of only 8 superstars taken outside the first round. Unfortunately those three are Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Fox - so none play in this organization anymore.

Tod!

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Poor Buffalo…

Screw those guys.

Poor Calgary. I feel sorry for me and no one else.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

1 for being a rebuilding team (.350+)
0 for being historically bad (under .350)

Why do these outcomes get fewer points when evaluating a GM? The NHL rewarded the "historically bad" Avalanche with Cale Makar.

I think in the regular season, if you miss the playoffs, a GM should be evaluated based on that team's draft lottery odds

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Why do these outcomes get fewer points when evaluating a GM? The NHL rewarded the "historically bad" Avalanche with Cale Makar.

I think in the regular season, if you miss the playoffs, a GM should be evaluated based on that team's draft lottery odds

You want to reward the ability to tank?

You think past Sabres GMs have been astute geniuses?