Did Sutter change the system?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah. Markstrom is not as good as last year. But there were plenty of games where he played exactly the same as in losses this year, except the team played way better in front of him and in those losses turned into wins (and Markstrom's big saves like he had later in the third last night) were what people remembered, not any of the goals. Also I don't recall the same number of high level chances being consistently allowed. A lot of shutouts posters refused to give Markstrom credit because his night was so easy.

We didn't give up the glaring chances a lot of his 20 shot shutouts did seem like easy work.

This year it seems we are not as tight on the defensive end which leads to a lot of chasing.

That still doesn't excuse his poor play, giving up bad goals at bad times in the game. He was shaky all night with poor rebound control and it was starting to feel like it was just a matter of time before he deflated the team.

We aren't scoring at the same level as last year and find out self in tighter game and I wonder if his confidence is shaken in those scenarios. He single handedly cost us against Edmonton and I wonder if that has creeped into this season.

Making a save at 6-0 and a save at 3-2 is a lot different. When the team is not scoring as much the goalie needs to make the save and he is being paid the money to make those saves. This isn't Brian Elliot or Mike Smith in net. He is being paid to be a #1 goalie not replacement level.

Only difference I am noticing is our defence not as involved as much and not clean zone exits that created a more fluid and faster breakout and moving through the neutral zone with speed. Team really misses Kylington.

Still unfair to compare everything to last year. A lot went our way especially injuries. That team didn't have Michael Stone taking regular shifts.

[Goriders]

I think they are forcing a system on a group of players that don’t fit into it. At some point you have to adjust to your players strengths.

3 on 3 is a good example. Huberdeau isn’t a good enough skater for all of the extra space. But they keep throwing him out there. You need faster guys on the ice then.

[Strange Brew]

On the personnel front:

Kylington to Weegar should be a huge upgrade. In general, I would say it is, as Weegar has been solid. But IMO this team lacks players who can effectively carry the puck and I thought he would do more of that.

Gudbranson to Stone is a downgrade.

But on the whole, did the personnel on the back end really get worse?

I'd say we are seeing a lack of organizational depth on the back end with the inability to play an effective 6th D-man. With the success the farm team is having, this is kind of hard to explain.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I think they are forcing a system on a group of players that don’t fit into it. At some point you have to adjust to your players strengths.

3 on 3 is a good example. Huberdeau isn’t a good enough skater for all of the extra space. But they keep throwing him out there. You need faster guys on the ice then.

That's just blatantly incorrect.

Last season Jonathan Huberdeau led the entire NHL (by 3) with eight 3 on 3 points, and wasn't on the ice for a single goal against.

[Robbob]

Flames have been in what, 26 one goal games? I think the big difference between this year and last year is that extra goal was coming easier for them (hence as mentioned above 6th in scoring). They are getting a lot of pucks hitting the bar and coming out rather than going in. On top of that blowing so many 3rd period leads, especially the multi goal leads, it is easily the difference of 4 or 5 games. A 10 point swing is huge.

[Freddy]

I suspect the groups confidence is low this season, while last year it was high. In an interview between periods recently with Tre he said in order for this group to be successful they have to suppress shot volume. This team is veteran laden and yet as a group they’re being told mission #1 is to neutralize other teams offence? Guys like Lindholm, Huberdeau, and Toffoli are shooting from inside the blue line on rushes versus carrying it in and looking for east west options or finding trailers. For me, it’s not working the the strengths of the personnel. Lastly, is there another #1 goalie in the league that finds himself sitting on his butt in scrambles more than Markstrom? He overcommits to his initial read and then is severely compromised as the play further develops or there are rebounds. In my amateur opinion Vladar has been calmer, more positionally sound, and exudes more confidence throughout the lineup when he is in.

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by Ottoman Empire

Can't help but think that Kylington would help matters, as would another top 6 speedy offensive talent. This whole Lucic on 2nd line has got to stop and Sutter's job is to win hockey games so he must see the value in playing the hot hand in goal. Markstrom's inconsistency should tell any coach that the time to switch to get some team traction is now.

Lucic has the same number of goals in the last 20 games as Huberdeau (4)

[Lanny_McDonald]

It's the coach. His personnel decisions are baffling. His decisions to play slugs up and down the lineup is frustrating. His decision to stick with Markstrom and hope he works his way out of his psychological prison is maddening. His refusal to insert some of the talent recalled from the minors is criminal. The Flames are short a skilled forward, but Sutter has taken a step backward more than the talent on the team.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

That's just blatantly incorrect.

Last season Jonathan Huberdeau led the entire NHL (by 3) with eight 3 on 3 points, and wasn't on the ice for a single goal against.

Thanks for this. I really don't know what is going on with him, he is obviously better than he is showing and not just a product of Florida's system.

[Azhouse]

I check in with CP now and then to see how they are doing. I find them almost unwatchable and boring. Hopefully it'll translate into some playoff success...

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Last year Flames were 6th in goals per game in the league.

This year they are 23rd.

How do people just ignore this most basic statistic and suggest it is all Markstrom?

They have 4 points less this year than last

Markstrom has .895 instead of a .920

He has zero shutouts and not 5

Flames didn't need all those goals last season...sure it would be nice but the fact remains they would have a better record than last so far with top end goaltending.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If Huberdeau can't get it going with Lindholm as his centre, I don't know why he's making $10.5 million.

Because Huberdeau is a play participator, not a play driver.

[Macho0978]

From a player perspective most of the blame goes to:

Huberdeau
Mangiapane
Markstrom

These 3 guys step up and this team will climb the standings.

From a coach/management perspective a lot of this is on Sutter's refusal to give a kid a chance and be more patient early in the season in hopes that it pays off later in the season.

A lot is on Treliving too because a lot of us were concerned how this team would be able to skate the puck out of trouble or gain the offensive blue line. A lot of us were worried that line combos with guys in our top 6 weren't going to work. Our top speed players are Dube, Backlund, Coleman. These 3 are not skilled players that drive your offence. This team desperately needs a speedy skilled winger to complement our other guys.

I feel this team on paper is still very good. We out play the other guy's more nights than we don't, but we just don't finish our chances like top teams do or like we did last year, and I think it's just a bad mix and could easily be fixed with 1 top 6 winger.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Posts like that one certainly suggest it's all goaltending. I agree with you, it is certainly part of the equation and last night was a prime example.

With .920 goaltending they would have four or five more wins easily...add 8 to 10 points.

Also zero injuries last season

It's not all goaltending but it's the biggest factor

[JohnnyB]

It's seems obvious that there are two big differences from last year. First is lack of top end scoring, and second is lack of top end goaltending.

Last year the team's top two forwards ranked 2nd and 8th in the league for points, and the team's top line finished ranked 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the league for +/-. Huberdeau and Kadri came in ostensibly as replacements for Johnny and Tkachuk, and weren't far off them in production last year, but so far this season the guys who last year were 2nd (Huberdeau) and 19th (Kadri) in scoring are now sitting at 95th (Kadri) and 110th (Huberdeau). And while last year the top end talent was 1-3 in plus minus, this year they're at 186th (Huberdeau), 385th (Lindholm), and 689th (Kadri).

Fortunately, Toffoli is having a good season that's helping the team, but this is also offset by Mangiapanne being a shadow of what he was last year.

On goaltending, what needs to be said? Last year Markstrom was a strong Vezina candidate. This year it's debatable if he should even be a number one goalie.

So, I don't think it's Sutter or the system. I think the team lost top end contributions at the level of NHL stars, both from the forwards and the goalie.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It's the coach. His personnel decisions are baffling. His decisions to play slugs up and down the lineup is frustrating. His decision to stick with Markstrom and hope he works his way out of his psychological prison is maddening. His refusal to insert some of the talent recalled from the minors is criminal. The Flames are short a skilled forward, but Sutter has taken a step backward more than the talent on the team.

It felt like last season every decision made sense, was rational for the context.

This season, complete opposite. I have no idea what happened to Sutter in the off-season but if we could unscramble his brain it would be great.

Your stubbornness will be your downfall, Darryl. If your ego is so huge you can’t change positions in the face of a mountain of evidence, well, maybe you really weren’t that good of a coach to begin with- cups or not.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

It's seems obvious that there are two big differences from last year. First is lack of top end scoring, and second is lack of top end goaltending.

Last year the team's top two forwards ranked 2nd and 8th in the league for points, and the team's top line finished ranked 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the league for +/-. Huberdeau and Kadri came in ostensibly as replacements for Johnny and Tkachuk, and weren't far off them in production last year, but so far this season the guys who last year were 2nd (Huberdeau) and 19th (Kadri) in scoring are now sitting at 95th (Kadri) and 110th (Huberdeau). And while last year the top end talent was 1-3 in plus minus, this year they're at 186th (Huberdeau), 385th (Lindholm), and 689th (Kadri).

Fortunately, Toffoli is having a good season that's helping the team, but this is also offset by Mangiapanne being a shadow of what he was last year.

On goaltending, what needs to be said? Last year Markstrom was a strong Vezina candidate. This year it's debatable if he should even be a number one goalie.

So, I don't think it's Sutter or the system. I think the team lost top end contributions at the level of NHL stars, both from the forwards and the goalie.

But the questions is why? Kadri I get, last year was a career year but he has been great and if Huberdeau was doing what he normally does I bet Kadri would be a PPG. So, what is wrong with Huberdeau? I'm sure there was a stat that said in the last 4 years going into this year only the wonder twins up north had more points. How does he go from a 100-point guy over 4 years to a 50-point guy? IMO new team new system was a good excuse but it's January. These guys should be rolling now. But the lines all seem to be off. Maybe that is on Sutter but IMO Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman have looked great but with Mangiapane on that line the top 2 lines just don't have the right mix. Ruzicka should probably move up for Lucic, but Lucic has been ok on his line. Most nights the top 2 lines are just not dominate. IMO it's not that the players aren't good they just don't complement each other. Speed skilled winger is the missing ingredient. I could also live with a good skating big physical winger that can score goals.

This team can't skate the puck and make passes that create high danger chances in transition.

I'd love to see a breakdown of high dangers chances where the goalie is set making the save vs on the move.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

maybe you really weren’t that good of a coach to begin with- cups or not.

Well that's enough internet for me today. Jesus.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Lucic has the same number of goals in the last 20 games as Huberdeau (4)

I wonder if Huberdeau had a Huberdeau passing him the puck if he would have more like Lucic.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

But the questions is why? Kadri I get, last year was a career year but he has been great and if Huberdeau was doing what he normally does I bet Kadri would be a PPG. So, what is wrong with Huberdeau? I'm sure there was a stat that said in the last 4 years going into this year only the wonder twins up north had more points. How does he go from a 100-point guy over 4 years to a 50-point guy? IMO new team new system was a good excuse but it's January. These guys should be rolling now. But the lines all seem to be off. Maybe that is on Sutter but IMO Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman have looked great but with Mangiapane on that line the top 2 lines just don't have the right mix. Ruzicka should probably move up for Lucic, but Lucic has been ok on his line. Most nights the top 2 lines are just not dominate. IMO it's not that the players aren't good they just don't complement each other. Speed skilled winger is the missing ingredient. I could also live with a good skating big physical winger that can score goals.

This team can't skate the puck and make passes that create high danger chances in transition.

I'd love to see a breakdown of high dangers chances where the goalie is set making the save vs on the move.

For forwards, I think it's a matter of chemistry. They have talent, but the pieces just don't fit together well enough for it to shine. They have no flow with each other. That's starting to improve, but it's still a long way off what the stars had last year.

For Markstrom, I don't know. Something happened between round one game seven and round two game one, and he has never fully recovered.