Scouting,Drafting and Developing.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flaming Horse

If we were ranking the flames from the area of scouting, drafting and developing where would they rank out of the 32 teams over the last 5yrs.Take off the homer glasses first.

I'll offer some perspective.

Let's look at the drafts since BT tookover.

2014: 1 NHLer (Sam) and bad picks with McDonald and Smith in the 2nd round. Always a debate how much of this draft was Burke v. Tree who had just started.

2015: No first round pick but 3 NHlers playing important roles on the team today (Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane), out of 5 picks. Fantastic result

2016: Already covered. 3 NHLers and 2 superstars. Fantastic.

2017: 5 total picks, only 1 in the first 3 rounds. Juuso not looking good but largely due to injuries. Ruzicka still in play. Lack of picks in the first 3 rounds the major issue.

2018: Lack of picks the issue. No picks in the first 3 rounds and only 5 in total. Little Z and Pettersen looked like savvy picks early on but not so much anymore. Pospisil intriguing. Hard to have a good draft when it starts for you at #105.

2019: Too early to evaluate but likely NHLer in Pelletier and 26 and a potential home run at 214 with Wolf. Nikolaev also intriguing. No 2nd round pick, only 5 picks in total.

2020: Too early to evaluate but Zary still is a good prospect. Poirier has immense upside and Kuznetzov is a high floor guy that will likely play. Boltmann was an odd pick. Kerins showing high potential and was drafted 174. Even Chechelev is intriguing. Lots of strong potential here from one of the few times the scouting team was given a lot of picks to work with

2021: WAY too early to evaluate but Coronato looks really good as a top 6 forward. Stromgren didn't have a great D+1 year but still has intriguing attributes. Some possibilities down the draft with Whynot, Beck and others. We'll see.

2022: 3 picks in total including a late 2nd. Not much to work with though I also didn't love what they did with what they had. But what do I know.


So that's my evaluation. I think it's balanced. And I think it highlights what I've said. This team is good at drafting but spends its draft capital to try to win now.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Flaming Horse

Just look at the last couple of years. There wasn't even anybody good enough to make the fourth line. This is why a guy like Rooney is signed and you had guys like Ritchie playing significant time last year. Nobody was ready. You think there would be at least somebody who could be good enough to fill out the fourth line. You are excepting mediocrity if you are using the excuse of where they are drafting.Look at the Blues. Kyrou and Thomas were later picks. Kyrou in the second round and Thomas 20th overall and they won the cup just a couple of years ago.They have been a better team then the flames and they were picking lower than them.

Who exactly was supposed to make the team? Your first 3 picks of 2016 have already made it. Your first two picks of 2017 have been in the conversation as tweeners last year. We didn't draft anyone in the first 3 rounds of 2018, and the 2019 prospects are just starting to be in the conversation.

Kryou was a 2016 pick(35th overall), we got Tkachuk, Dube and Fox from that draft. I would argue that Lindholm, Hanifin, Huberdeau and Weegar are a result of that draft.

Finally, bad teams will draft higher and have more spots open for prospects. A top 5 pick can play in the NHL right away, meanwhile a 1st round pick like Pelletier or Zary needs 3-4 years before maturing their game. If you remember Sutter discussing the topic, he was of the opinion that a lot of the Flames players were brought up too early, so now they're taking their time.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Flaming Horse

Just look at the last couple of years. There wasn't even anybody good enough to make the fourth line.

If you look at the last couple of years, you're still looking at players who are 20 and under. Except for top picks in the first round, precious few of those have made any NHL team yet.

[DoubleK]

The only (minor) grievance I have with the scouts and player development folk is not being able to draft and develop an NHL goaltender.

Maybe it's just really, really hard, but I can't think of a goalie who was drafted and developed by the Flames start more than a handful of games (Ortio?).

Other than that, the team has done a really good job of drafting and developing talent.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

The only (minor) grievance I have with the scouts and player development folk is not being able to draft and develop an NHL goaltender.

Maybe it's just really, really hard, but I can't think of a goalie who was drafted and developed by the Flames start more than a handful of games (Ortio?).

Other than that, the team has done a really good job of drafting and developing talent.

I think that was our last regime.

Goalies take a while in the pipe line, and I also credit Rittich to the current group in development, which is a hell of a lot farther than we've ever been in finding our own talent.

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Have we actually? I am not convinced at all that there has been a drafting-philosophy shift in the duration of Treliving's tenure. Can you illustrate otherwise?

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I wasn't a fan of taking Stromgren (big 6'3 winger) over someone like Stankoven or Raty. Also not a big fan of taking Ronni over Hutson or Goyette this year.

I think towards the tail end of the first Sutter era we had a change in drafting philosophy. I pinpoint it to the Baertschi draft. Since then we've really focused on skill, IQ and compete and came away with guys like Baertschi, Granlund, Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Phillips, Kerins, Zavgorodniy and Emilio Petersen. Some hits and misses for sure but that was to me a clear change in drafting philosophy from the Phaneuf, Chucko, Nystrom drafts.

The past two drafts, I think we started to move away from that and back to big guys that play a solid, safe, two-way game. Of course there have been exceptions to both. We did draft Hunter Smith in the "skill and IQ" era and we did draft Jack Beck last year, but overall, I feel like we may have switched our focus back to the low-ceiling, two-way player type of drafting again.

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

I wasn't a fan of taking Stromgren (big 6'3 winger) over someone like Stankoven or Raty. Also not a big fan of taking Ronni over Hutson or Goyette this year.

I think towards the tail end of the first Sutter era we had a change in drafting philosophy. I pinpoint it to the Baertschi draft. Since then we've really focused on skill, IQ and compete and came away with guys like Baertschi, Granlund, Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Phillips, Kerins, Zavgorodniy and Emilio Petersen. Some hits and misses for sure but that was to me a clear change in drafting philosophy from the Phaneuf, Chucko, Nystrom drafts.

The past two drafts, I think we started to move away from that and back to big guys that play a solid, safe, two-way game. Of course there have been exceptions to both. We did draft Hunter Smith in the "skill and IQ" era and we did draft Jack Beck last year, but overall, I feel like we may have switched our focus back to the low-ceiling, two-way player type of drafting again.

I 100% agree

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I'll offer some perspective.

Let's look at the drafts since BT tookover.

2014: 1 NHLer (Sam) and bad picks with McDonald and Smith in the 2nd round. Always a debate how much of this draft was Burke v. Tree who had just started.

2015: No first round pick but 3 NHlers playing important roles on the team today (Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane), out of 5 picks. Fantastic result

2016: Already covered. 3 NHLers and 2 superstars. Fantastic.

2017: 5 total picks, only 1 in the first 3 rounds. Juuso not looking good but largely due to injuries. Ruzicka still in play. Lack of picks in the first 3 rounds the major issue.

2018: Lack of picks the issue. No picks in the first 3 rounds and only 5 in total. Little Z and Pettersen looked like savvy picks early on but not so much anymore. Pospisil intriguing. Hard to have a good draft when it starts for you at #105.

2019: Too early to evaluate but likely NHLer in Pelletier and 26 and a potential home run at 214 with Wolf. Nikolaev also intriguing. No 2nd round pick, only 5 picks in total.

2020: Too early to evaluate but Zary still is a good prospect. Poirier has immense upside and Kuznetzov is a high floor guy that will likely play. Boltmann was an odd pick. Kerins showing high potential and was drafted 174. Even Chechelev is intriguing. Lots of strong potential here from one of the few times the scouting team was given a lot of picks to work with

2021: WAY too early to evaluate but Coronato looks really good as a top 6 forward. Stromgren didn't have a great D+1 year but still has intriguing attributes. Some possibilities down the draft with Whynot, Beck and others. We'll see.

2022: 3 picks in total including a late 2nd. Not much to work with though I also didn't love what they did with what they had. But what do I know.


So that's my evaluation. I think it's balanced. And I think it highlights what I've said. This team is good at drafting but spends its draft capital to try to win now.

I agree with 99% of this. And the 2014 list was largely set before Treliving arrived, though Arizona allowed him to participate in the selections.

[blankall]

We'll see in the next 1-2 years where the flames actually are with their drafting and developing. What will potentially separate the flames from the contenders is depth. If the flames can get 2-3 prospects to step up into legit mid six forwards, they'll have everything they need to be legit contenders. In the cap world, teams need to somewhat build from within. Those affordable depth guys that put up 40-60 points are the key to a championship.


The flames have done a great job of developing defenders, and are now getting praise around the league for their defensive depth. Now they need their forwards to take the same steps forward.

[Geeoff]

Would like to see the Flames make more picks. We are usually under 7 picks

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

I wasn't a fan of taking Stromgren (big 6'3 winger) over someone like Stankoven or Raty. Also not a big fan of taking Ronni over Hutson or Goyette this year....



The past two drafts, I think we started to move away from that and back to big guys that play a solid, safe, two-way game. Of course there have been exceptions to both. We did draft Hunter Smith in the "skill and IQ" era and we did draft Jack Beck last year, but overall, I feel like we may have switched our focus back to the low-ceiling, two-way player type of drafting again.

So, since Sutter has returned to the organisation the Flames have drafted 11 players; eight of those outside the first two rounds. Only two of them were under 6'1", but the previous year, 2020, the Flames drafted eight players, with 3 under 6'1". I just don't think there are enough data points to show a change in drafting philosophy. Maybe it's there, but this could also just be coincidental noise.

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[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I just don't think there are enough data points to show a change in drafting philosophy. Maybe it's there, but this could also just be coincidental noise.

There's no such thing as coincidental noise, because THE CONSPIRACY RULES ALL! Get out the torches and pitchforks! No data point is too small to freak out about!

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Flaming Horse

Just look at the last couple of years. There wasn't even anybody good enough to make the fourth line. This is why a guy like Rooney is signed and you had guys like Ritchie playing significant time last year. Nobody was ready. You think there would be at least somebody who could be good enough to fill out the fourth line. You are excepting mediocrity if you are using the excuse of where they are drafting.Look at the Blues. Kyrou and Thomas were later picks. Kyrou in the second round and Thomas 20th overall and they won the cup just a couple of years ago.They have been a better team then the flames and they were picking lower than them.

So you're not measuring it. I was hoping for some numbers on picks and players internally promoted compared with team success. It's easy to say they're bad at something, but more interesting if there are some numbers possibly backing that opinion.

[Spinach]

I kind of agree with the premise that the Flames don't particularly emphasize speed, even if Coronato & Pelletier don't really corroborate that notion. Mind you, I've seen conflicting reports on Pelletier's skating, so I'll just go by what I've seen on video and tv, and he's quick albeit not really a burner. Sam Bennett was also a strong skater taken early.

Andersson (his issues were more to do with conditioning, and he's since improved), Tkachuk, Zary were high picks all had questionable skating on draft day. I'd bet there are others, but it's hardly worth evaluating until we know whether they're even NHL material.

I'd like to see more burners up front for sure. Treliving has taken some strong-skating blueliners, though, in Kylington, Poirier, Whynot & Valimaki, and maybe a couple of others.

Now, a number his signings and guys he's traded for are either slow or average: Neal, Toffoli, Brouwer, Schwindt, Lucic, Hamonic and Chiasson.

Hanifin, Coleman, Kadri, Frolik & Gustafsson are probably the only speedsters Treliving's acquired (players like Huberdeau & Lindholm are fine skaters but aren't really speedsters).

[Flaming Horse]

Originally Posted by the2bears

So you're not measuring it. I was hoping for some numbers on picks and players internally promoted compared with team success. It's easy to say they're bad at something, but more interesting if there are some numbers possibly backing that opinion.

Here is a number for you. In the the 8yrs going on 9yrs Tre had been gm the team has won 2 rounds of playoff hockey. I don't count the bubble. I don't know what that was but it was not hockey. That is brutal. If you take off the homer glasses you will see the prospect pool of the flames is just not that good. Except for Wolf but time will tell. The media and fans hype these prospects and team all the time and what have they done but win two rounds in the last 8-9 yrs.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Spinach

I kind of agree with the premise that the Flames don't particularly emphasize speed...

See, I think this is a wrong approach to drafting, and I am glad the Flames aren't doing this. As soon as the team starts fixating on one attribute, then mistakes are going to be made. The Flames approach, rather (as near as I can tell) is to take the best available player at the draft position. This will often mean that a player is not the best skater if he is great at something else, but there are times that a player will skate extremely well. I think that most of the players selected by the Flames tend to not be challenged by poor skating.


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[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flaming Horse

Here is a number for you. In the the 8yrs going on 9yrs Tre had been gm the team has won 2 rounds of playoff hockey. I don't count the bubble. I don't know what that was but it was not hockey. That is brutal. If you take off the homer glasses you will see the prospect pool of the flames is just not that good. Except for Wolf but time will tell. The media and fans hype these prospects and team all the time and what have they done but win two rounds in the last 8-9 yrs.

You are talking about two different things, and it doesn't make any sense.

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[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You are talking about two different things, and it doesn't make any sense.

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Did you remember to take off your homer glasses before you posted this?

[Jay Random]

This:

Originally Posted by Flaming Horse

the team has won 2 rounds of playoff hockey

Has precisely bugger-all to do with this:

the prospect pool of the flames is just not that good.

But here's a hint for you: The reason they are called ‘prospects’ is because they aren't on the team yet. Therefore, the Flames' current prospects were not on the roster during those 8 years you are bitching about. No team in the world wins or loses playoff rounds on the strength of players who aren't playing for them yet.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Spinach

I kind of agree with the premise that the Flames don't particularly emphasize speed, even if Coronato & Pelletier don't really corroborate that notion. Mind you, I've seen conflicting reports on Pelletier's skating, so I'll just go by what I've seen on video and tv, and he's quick albeit not really a burner. Sam Bennett was also a strong skater taken early.

Andersson (his issues were more to do with conditioning, and he's since improved), Tkachuk, Zary were high picks all had questionable skating on draft day. I'd bet there are others, but it's hardly worth evaluating until we know whether they're even NHL material.

I'd like to see more burners up front for sure. Treliving has taken some strong-skating blueliners, though, in Kylington, Poirier, Whynot & Valimaki, and maybe a couple of others.

Now, a number his signings and guys he's traded for are either slow or average: Neal, Toffoli, Brouwer, Schwindt, Lucic, Hamonic and Chiasson.

Hanifin, Coleman, Kadri, Frolik & Gustafsson are probably the only speedsters Treliving's acquired (players like Huberdeau & Lindholm are fine skaters but aren't really speedsters).

Generally outside the very top of the draft you are going to have to compromise on something. Guys who have skill, speed, size and good hockey sense go in the top 5 or even higher. So once you get into the mid and late part of the 1st, you are looking at players who have a gap in one area or another.

To me i would prioritize hockey sense above all else, because it's the x-factor that can allow a player to over come a weakness elsewhere.