[News] Ryan Francis back into the draft?

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

But the thing is, the bigger skaters the Flames drafted in 2021 are the ones who look the worst... Stromgren, Huckins, Whynot, Jordan, and Ciona all had really lacklustre D+1s (to say the least), significantly worse than Francis'. Whereas Coronato and Beck both look great.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Flames end up signing only three of their 2021 draft picks: the two small guys, and Sergeev. The others, like Francis, don't look like they're good enough. But the Flames' success rate has been much higher with smaller, skilled players.

I'm not saying Francis is a difference-maker but I think the Flames' past drafting methodology didn't need to change. The Flames were notorious for drafting big, low-upside players from ~2000–2014 and they were one of the league's worst drafting teams.

You are right, if you draft JUST for size, you'll fail every time-we all remember the Sutter years when we seemingly looked for grit and size only. There's so much speed and skill in the game these days that you should be trying to find players that fill that description,however-as long as it stays a contact sport, size, toughness, and grit will be important, especially in the playoffs. Those are attributes that contending teams always look to improve at the deadline.

Of the players you mention from the 2021 draft, I would say that a few of them have had a bad rap. Stromgren was one of the youngest players of that draft (he turns 19 in June)and was affected by his move to a different organization. He's still top-10 in our prospect pool IMO. Huckins had 25 pts in 28 games before he was banished from his team (which in itself might make him a bust), and I'm waiting to see what's going on with Whynot and Jordan-IMO, both are better than what they showed this year. Both might need a change of scenery. All of these guys, though, can skate (albeit Huckins needs work), and they have some skill. Ciona was a head-scratcher for me, but time will tell with all of them.

[TheScorpion]

The only one of that group who I'm still holding out any expectations for is Stromgren, honestly. The rest are purely in the "found money if they turn into something" camp, IMO. Harsh, maybe, but my perspective.

[Enoch Root]

People always talk about size in a one-or-the-other way vs skill. Sure, big and slow or big and not talented is useless. But size matters in the NHL - you want big AND fast, like almost every player on the Avs.

Can small guys make it? Of course. But you can only have a couple- not half your roster.

And as good as the Flames' drafting has been for the last few years talentwise, they are, collectively, really small.

[1qqaaz]

Who was the last big (6'2 or taller) top 6 forward that the Flames drafted outside of the first round? David Moss?

Guys like this do exist. Drake Batherson, Mark Stone, Jason Robertson, Jamie Benn, etc.
Most of these guys actually had pretty good NHLe's during their draft year and probably should've been drafted higher.

I don't think the Flames should avoid drafting big forwards. But perhaps they should change what they're looking for when they do draft big forwards.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

But the thing is, the bigger skaters the Flames drafted in 2021 are the ones who look the worst... Stromgren, Huckins, Whynot, Jordan, and Ciona all had really lacklustre D+1s (to say the least), significantly worse than Francis'. Whereas Coronato and Beck both look great.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Flames end up signing only three of their 2021 draft picks: the two small guys, and Sergeev. The others, like Francis, don't look like they're good enough. But the Flames' success rate has been much higher with smaller, skilled players.

I'm not saying Francis is a difference-maker but I think the Flames' past drafting methodology didn't need to change. The Flames were notorious for drafting big, low-upside players from ~2000–2014 and they were one of the league's worst drafting teams.

I'd eat my hat if the Flames didn't sign all those guys. They'll sign at least a few of them to save face even if they don't deserve it.

Last year's draft was a crapshoot though. Barely any games played in a lot of places to scout.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Who was the last big (6'2 or taller) top 6 forward that the Flames drafted outside of the first round? David Moss?

Guys like this do exist. Drake Batherson, Mark Stone, Jason Robertson, Jamie Benn, etc.
Most of these guys actually had pretty good NHLe's during their draft year and probably should've been drafted higher.

I don't think the Flames should avoid drafting big forwards. But perhaps they should change what they're looking for when they do draft big forwards.

Ruzicka is over 6'2 and was a 4th round pick.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Ruzicka is over 6'2 and was a 4th round pick.

He's not a top 6 forward, at least not yet.
Would be great if he does end up on the second line. Great pick, even if he ends up on the third line.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

He's not a top 6 forward, at least not yet.
Would be great if he does end up on the second line. Great pick, even if he ends up on the third line.

Ah - I missed that. I guess the closest would be Ferland who was borderline top 6 (although probably as close as David Moss) and not sure if he was 6'2 but a big body.

[Roof-Daddy]

I wish the Flames would have implemented their skill over size strategy one year sooner.

We might have Point instead of the 80 or so AHL games of Hunter Smith to show for it.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I wish the Flames would have implemented their skill over size strategy one year sooner.

We might have Point instead of the 80 or so AHL games of Hunter Smith to show for it.

The Flames recently took Stromgren over Stankoven. Not sure they would have picked Point today without the benefit of hindsight.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The Flames recently took Stromgren over Stankoven. Not sure they would have picked Point today without the benefit of hindsight.

Hence my use of the word "might" lol

Of course we can't be sure

[Goriders]

I’m guessing since the Flames didn’t sign him they didn’t think that highly of him in hindsight.

[Poe969]

I'm still mad they didn't take Stankoven. He's a better prospect and that name, just imagine the catch phrases. Put some stank on that one!

[Royle9]

Some big skilled forwards in this years draft and next.

Geekie
Slafkovsky
Gauthier
Kasper

Unfortunately we didn't suck enough to get a pick in the range needed.
Not that we've ever had a top 3 pick to be fair

Same ol same.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Never get excited about junior players until they have a chance to suit up in the pros and never proclaim our drafting as successful until players suit up in the NHL. It's a completely different game and each step is massive. Don't be fooled by the spreadsheet guys who use NHLe to project where a player should shake out. Every rung of the development ladder is tougher to reach and comes with incredible challenges. Most players will not achieve the same success from the previous level. Most will plateau and wash out. For every Jakob Pelletier there are 10 nameless players who fade into oblivion.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

The only one of that group who I'm still holding out any expectations for is Stromgren, honestly. The rest are purely in the "found money if they turn into something" camp, IMO. Harsh, maybe, but my perspective.

Flame’s scouting in Europe is almost as good as their pro scouting

When was the last time they found someone good in Europe?

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Ryan Howse'ish?

I have not seen Francis play, nor do I know much about him as a person but I do know people who knew Ryan Howse and his dad Jason. They indicated that "the apple did not fall far from the tree" with regards to Ryan (Howse) and his father and that Ryan's issue was his attitude.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Never get excited about junior players until they have a chance to suit up in the pros and never proclaim our drafting as successful until players suit up in the NHL. It's a completely different game and each step is massive. Don't be fooled by the spreadsheet guys who use NHLe to project where a player should shake out. Every rung of the development ladder is tougher to reach and comes with incredible challenges. Most players will not achieve the same success from the previous level. Most will plateau and wash out. For every Jakob Pelletier there are 10 nameless players who fade into oblivion.

Or each fan can do what they want right? I mean I honestly don't see many (any) that are just penciling guys into the lineup based on OHL stats.

Maybe I've missed those posts.

I see most (all) happy that guys seem to have risen above where they were drafted and that's a very good sign for a team's draft record soon after a draft.

The spreadsheet guys just look at how the average guy with x production in x league pans out in the NHL.

It's useful information, but it isn't a projection. It's an average.

Clearly you want guys with good NHLe's as that means they are progressing as you stated.

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Redlan

I have not seen Francis play, nor do I know much about him as a person but I do know people who knew Ryan and his dad Jason. They indicated that "the apple did not fall far from the tree" with regards to Ryan and his father and that Ryan's issue was his attitude.

I wondered if an attitude issue might be the case, after the flames signed his teammate (Poirier) from the same draft last summer and not him. He spent the beginning of the season in the AHL, makes me wonder if they saw something in him they didn't like and decided to send him down.

I guess he didn't meet whatever expectations the flames set for him in his D+2 and was deemed a lost cause. Best of luck to the guy.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The Flames recently took Stromgren over Stankoven. Not sure they would have picked Point today without the benefit of hindsight.

They also took Coronato over guys like Bolduc or Lucius who were bigger prospects.

I think at this point the Flames are drafting the guys they think are the best player.

Unfortunately in the case of Stromgren and Stankoven it looks like they were wrong. Also much easier to say in hindsight - especially with the weirdness of the 2021 draft and the lack of hockey played by the prospects in that draft.

Stankoven barely played in his draft year, Stromgren had a pretty strong draft year NHL Equivalency with strong numbers. So not like he was a big guy that didn't produce at all that they drafted just because he was BIG.


In regards to Francis I'm a bit surprised he didn't sign. I do wonder if that was the Flames or Francis that made that decision.

Francis had great years in 19-20 and 20-21, but seemed to regress this past season. So Flames could have made decision to cut ties. Seems weird they wouldn't want to sign him when they had played him in AHL games this year and seemed fond of the player though.

Francis might also see an organization that has guys like Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Phillips, Pelletier, and Coronato as undersized forwards already and think that he's unlikely to get a good look in this org.