Australian Racial Violence?!?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Footscray

You must know yourself that this example is not justification, it could as well be some drunken farmer doing the same thing to his daughter somewhere out in country victoria. It may not be surprising at all but I think we can agree that it is less than ideal, you should never have a pre-determined notion about a person's nature before you meet them because of where they come from, it is a kindergarten morality lesson.

Why not? It is an example and a characteristi of certain "culture." Have you heard of "honour murders" in Germany, where the youngest member of muslim family kills his sister to "regain back the honor of the family"? Maybe she dated a guy lets kill her? She wore jeans lets beat her up? Maybe she talked to a nonmuslim lets lock her up at home for months?

Total and utter disregard towards individual rights of women (and "infidels" - just look at the way how muslim law sharia treats infidels) is not just an example - its a main characteristic of the "culture." It is how they think, it is how they were taught to think and its how they teach their kids to think. And it is not compatible with western culure in any way, and if someone worships multiculturality - when those sick things are tolerated, dont be surprised there are people trying to defend their way of life. Multiculturality should be abount blending compatible cultures and not about letting crap creep into our lives.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Why not? It is an example and a characteristi of certain "culture." Have you heard of "honour murders" in Germany, where the youngest member of muslim family kills his sister to "regain back the honor of the family"? Maybe she dated a guy lets kill her? She wore jeans lets beat her up? Maybe she talked to a nonmuslim lets lock her up at home for months?

Total and utter disregard towards individual rights of women (and "infidels" - just look at the way how muslim law sharia treats infidels) is not just an example - its a main characteristic of the "culture." It is how they think, it is how they were taught to think and its how they teach their kids to think. And it is not compatible with western culure in any way, and if someone worships multiculturality - when those sick things are tolerated, dont be surprised there are people trying to defend their way of life. Multiculturality should be abount blending compatible cultures and not about letting crap creep into our lives.

Ya know I want to agree with you on many points. Many off them UN-pc-like. But 6000 drunken idiots? Frustration is one thing a mob is another...I hope you see my point. MOB justice in London had the POLICE off an innocent Brazilian and in the BS cover-up had the police BS a mountain.

[mykalberta]

The Braziling shooting in London wasnt mob violence, its called people being extra cautios and if the guy doesnt stop when told to stop buy a dude with a gun, you get the consequences.

Things are diffent in the ole C dot, when I go across the street to the Second cup or Timmies I am not worried about some dude comeing witha backpack and killing himself and me. If I lived in that environment then I would hope the police would be extra cautious.

As per the deal in Australia, the people there are generally less tolerant toward Japanese/Chinese etc than Muslims. I havent been there in a few years and things may have changed given Iraq etc If you have ever been to Banff, think of that only on a much larger scale and you get the idea of why some people may be upset. Also now add the fact that Australia is now part of the worlds trifecta (US, England, Australia). Any one of those countries are targets by the same people that preformed 9/11 or even closer to home for the Australians - the bombings in Bali. All of those countries have have the following in common which are high on haters of the worlds hate list: Predominently white, Christian, wealthy, not afraid to speak outloud.

All things paint bright red targets on the above countries, and less red targets on countries like Canada, Spain, Italy, Germany, France, etc.

Its unfortunate that a race was targeted instead of the individuals involved (that I could at least understand if not support given the current status of the legal systems in Anglo-Saxon countries).

MYK

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

You know whats funny? When white Aussies hold protests against violent Arab immigrants, thats immediatelly called racims (fair enough) but no one calls it racism when Arabs terorize white citizens - heck it started when the Lebanese beat up white guards on a beach, proclaiming it is "theirs." Looks to me that only whites are always labelled as racists, when they are sick and tired of immigrants who are not willing to blend in their "new" country, not even a bit. Instead they are stiring up crap and spreading violence (rapes and what not).

Sooo.. what's your point? That we believe only whites are capable of racism? If you think Arab-racism is being overlooked, start a thread.

Maybe you're implying the racist mob was justified?

[tjinaz]

Does anyone think the riots in France had anything to do with this? I think the French situation clearly shows what happens when a muslim minority is ignored and no effort is made to assimilate into the host country. Granted they (French Muslims) were put in a bad situation with, no jobs, no hope and treated as second class citizens but have now claimed areas of France as their own just as the Lebanese in Austrailia. Was this a pre-emptive strike by the Aussies?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

Does anyone think the riots in France had anything to do with this?

Was this a pre-emptive strike by the Aussies?

First off, the guys I saw drinking and shouting on TV didn't look like the type of fellows that watch the news and they don't care about what goes on in a Paris suburb.

And a pre-emptive strike? What do you mean by that?

They did get a head start in smashing white-owned cars, white-owned businesses and throwing rocks and bottles and punches at white police officers, but I don't know if you can consider that a pre-emptive strike.

It was a boozed-up mob of fools wrecking things and beating up a few unfortunate people who happened by. You are giving them too much credit if you think there was some sort of strategy.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Why not? It is an example and a characteristi of certain "culture." Have you heard of "honour murders" in Germany, where the youngest member of muslim family kills his sister to "regain back the honor of the family"? Maybe she dated a guy lets kill her? She wore jeans lets beat her up? Maybe she talked to a nonmuslim lets lock her up at home for months?

Total and utter disregard towards individual rights of women (and "infidels" - just look at the way how muslim law sharia treats infidels) is not just an example - its a main characteristic of the "culture." It is how they think, it is how they were taught to think and its how they teach their kids to think. And it is not compatible with western culure in any way, and if someone worships multiculturality - when those sick things are tolerated, dont be surprised there are people trying to defend their way of life. Multiculturality should be abount blending compatible cultures and not about letting crap creep into our lives.

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read.
You make huge generalizations about everyone of a culture, based on the little you know of a few. I'm gonna let you in a little secret. Just like Western society, Eastern societies are made up of diverse people full of good people and bad people, good cultures and bad cultures. How the **** do you know who each person raised their kids, or what they believe in?
Would it be fair to make generazation that all Westerners are like you??
Cause I sure as hell aint and I don't know any who are.

I know a ton of Muslim people who would never support the crap you wrote about, but go ahead and paint them all with the same brush. It's a lot easier then opening your ignorant mind.

[@theCBE]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read.
You make huge generalizations about everyone of a culture, based on the little you know of a few. I'm gonna let you in a little secret. Just like Western society, Eastern societies are made up of diverse people full of good people and bad people, good cultures and bad cultures. How the **** do you know who each person raised their kids, or what they believe in?
Would it be fair to make generazation that all Westerners are like you??
Cause I sure as hell aint and I don't know any who are.

I know a ton of Muslim people who would never support the crap you wrote about, but go ahead and paint them all with the same brush. It's a lot easier then opening your ignorant mind.

Well said

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

The Braziling shooting in London wasnt mob violence, its called people being extra cautios and if the guy doesnt stop when told to stop buy a dude with a gun, you get the consequences.
MYK

That is what the police in London tried to make everyone believe.

Total BS:
One: They, the police, followed him from his home, onto a bus and into a train station.
- If he is a suspected terrorist carrying a bomb, where do stop him? Especially after bus and train bombings...

TWO: He was wearing a bulky winter jacket in summer
- He wore no jacket whatsoever

THREE: He ran into the station when told to stop and was chased by the police who tackled him and shot him 5 times to make sure he could not detonate a bomb.
- No....He bought a train ticket and walked into the station onto the platform on his way to work. When challenged by the police he stopped and was amicable. He offered no resistance! Police jumped him and put 7 bullets into his head.

FOUR: The London police said that they were using Israeli tactics in subduing a suspected bomber.
- Yet in the days prior to this murder the Israelis stopped a REAL bomber without firing a shot or the bomb going off. Hmmm.


The London police murdered a guy because he had dark skin. They acted like an unthinking mob.

[Flash Walken]

in regards to the london shooting, it's hard to be more amicable with the police than by lying on your stomach.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Ya know I want to agree with you on many points. Many off them UN-pc-like. But 6000 drunken idiots? Frustration is one thing a mob is another...I hope you see my point. MOB justice in London had the POLICE off an innocent Brazilian and in the BS cover-up had the police BS a mountain.

Yes, but where did I say that a mob beating up people is a great idea? Obviously I dont think that beating a couple of middle eastern girls as a "revenge" is the way to go.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read.
You make huge generalizations about everyone of a culture, based on the little you know of a few. I'm gonna let you in a little secret. Just like Western society, Eastern societies are made up of diverse people full of good people and bad people, good cultures and bad cultures. How the **** do you know who each person raised their kids, or what they believe in?
Would it be fair to make generazation that all Westerners are like you??
Cause I sure as hell aint and I don't know any who are.

I know a ton of Muslim people who would never support the crap you wrote about, but go ahead and paint them all with the same brush. It's a lot easier then opening your ignorant mind.

Huge genaralizations? Mate, get a grip. If you are not able to see clear patterns in islamic "culture", you are blind. The whole "culture" revolves around a total disrespect towards women and non-muslims. I will ask you again - what do you know about islamic law and how it treats women and "infidels"? You will see a lot of tolerance there, I am sure.

Second, I wasnt talking about all Eastern cultures, that should be obvious. For example, Japanese culture is perfectly compatible with western culture and they can enrich each other, as it has happened in business for example (US companies applying Japanese methods). I am yet to see a single positive thing coming out of islamic "culture."

As for the good muslims - they are the ones who are intelligent enough to drop the crap their culture is infested with. I would go as far as to say that they had to drop their culture (almost) altogether and adopted western culture (while keeping some of the "innocent islamic stuff"). Traditional islam is not compatible with western (judeo-christian-humanist) culture. You havent proved otherwise, other than the usual political correctness BS (all ideologies are even etc). Call me ignorant all you want, I will call you a blind apologist. So we are even.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Huge genaralizations? Mate, get a grip. If you are not able to see clear patterns in islamic "culture", you are blind. The whole "culture" revolves around a total disrespect towards women and non-muslims. I will ask you again - what do you know about islamic law and how it treats women and "infidels"? You will see a lot of tolerance there, I am sure.

Second, I wasnt talking about all Eastern cultures, that should be obvious. For example, Japanese culture is perfectly compatible with western culture and they can enrich each other, as it has happened in business for example (US companies applying Japanese methods). I am yet to see a single positive thing coming out of islamic "culture."

As for the good muslims - they are the ones who are intelligent enough to drop the crap their culture is infested with. I would go as far as to say that they had to drop their culture (almost) altogether and adopted western culture (while keeping some of the "innocent islamic stuff"). Traditional islam is not compatible with western (judeo-christian-humanist) culture. You havent proved otherwise, other than the usual political correctness BS (all ideologies are even etc). Call me ignorant all you want, I will call you a blind apologist. So we are even.

Wow. I can't believe you had the balls to write this down for public consumption. Kudos for putting your beliefs out there, you're a credit to the Anarcho-Capitalist cause!

[Footscray]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Huge genaralizations? Mate, get a grip. If you are not able to see clear patterns in islamic "culture", you are blind. The whole "culture" revolves around a total disrespect towards women and non-muslims. I will ask you again - what do you know about islamic law and how it treats women and "infidels"? You will see a lot of tolerance there, I am sure.

Second, I wasnt talking about all Eastern cultures, that should be obvious. For example, Japanese culture is perfectly compatible with western culture and they can enrich each other, as it has happened in business for example (US companies applying Japanese methods). I am yet to see a single positive thing coming out of islamic "culture."

As for the good muslims - they are the ones who are intelligent enough to drop the crap their culture is infested with. I would go as far as to say that they had to drop their culture (almost) altogether and adopted western culture (while keeping some of the "innocent islamic stuff"). Traditional islam is not compatible with western (judeo-christian-humanist) culture. You havent proved otherwise, other than the usual political correctness BS (all ideologies are even etc). Call me ignorant all you want, I will call you a blind apologist. So we are even.

That's some intense hate dude, you should try taking a class on Islam or buying a book, you have a very poor understanding of the faith overall. If everybody in western society had your lack of knowledge and tact we would be living in a pretty ****ty society.

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't know about Hack&Lube, but I don't see any "quake about to occur".

Do you? If so, where? Why?

Canada has it's share of dumb racists, but I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to round up 6000 drunken fools to rival the display we've seen in Sydney.

Sorry for the late reply... I've been a tad busy lately. Hopefully this reply covers Incinerators concerns too.

First of all, I suggest that the term "racist" should not be exclusively assigned to white people. Let's use CP for a parallel analogy.

Assume (just for arguments sake, JUST an example) all posters at CP were white. Over time, we get some 'Nuck posters (Asian) and some Oiler posters (Black). Toss in some Wing fans (Muslim) and some Leaf fans (idiots)..... (OK, THAT was a cheap shot...)

Anyhoo, in the world that is CP, the Flames fans clearly outnumber all others, but due to the popularity of CP, many other "fans" come here. We start to see an increase in 'Nucks, Greasers and others. Most have found these boards because they are very interested in participating in this community.

But there are a few that are not. The troll troublemakers start to creep in. Their presence disrupts the life here, and even the objections of the regular 'Nucks and Greaser fans do nothing to mitigate the problem. Flame trolls now get into the picture and add to the problem, at times in a big way.

Soon, even though this began as a Flames board, there are real fights between 'Nucks and Greasers. Not only that, but the increase in other "teams" trolls has shifted your perspective on that "team." You now tend to paint all of their fans into generalized statements. You see them all the same....

Over time, what do you have?

HF!!! Each team (race) tends to have their fanatics that spoil life for all others. Quibbling over silly issues is the norm, and those that seem most ignorant tend to try to have THEIR thoughts (threads) always in the forefront.

End of analogy. Some personal history for an example.

Perhaps I grew up in one of the few areas where race really wasn't an issue (at least to me).... '70's-'80's small West Kootenay town where we had a significant population that were Portugese, Russian, Italian or other. I still reflect to this day who our validitorian turned out to be.

Grad class 1983. There were two candidates that really had the attention of the student body. Sandra G (a black female) and David P (a white male). Both were articulate, intelligent people. Sandra, however, was the only "fan" of her team. We had next to zero black people in the whole school, and she was the only one in our grad class.... out of a hundred or so.

Why did I vote for her over David? And why did she win class validictorian? (Yes, a female black lady won in small town BC). Upon reflection, I think there are two reasons. One, she was a very good "fan". She spoke her mind, and backed it up intelligently. She didn't derule others whatsoever (not saying David DID). Secondly, there were no other "fans" like Sandra that brought down the general opinion of her beliefs. There was no comparison to think that a vote for her was a vote for that type of "fan".

It didn't even come into my mind.

Back to present day Canada (and France and Australia et al.)

If (as Incinerator has pointed out) we are going towards a Canada (board style) that is more closely resembling HF than the CP we know, what do you expect in the future? We already see other "fans" fighting themselves in racially divided situations Canada wide. Immigration policies might be an issue (google some recent articles... not good.) Results have been the increase in pockets of fans of each team. Restrictions on recognizing their credentials has sometimes resulted in their inablility to prosper here. In some cases, Canada is creating a society of racially split sections of cities based on what type of "fan" they are (again, using the HF board analogy, splitting sections into each team.)

And we are becoming more like the NHL in Canada (following the analogy.) The more members of all the teams out there, the more hate (and hateful) "fans" that develop. EVEN THOUGH for the most part, they are civil, there is a certain section of each fanbase that WILL cause problems. They will, and do, decide to venture into other turfs to stir up problems. They will, and do, form gangs to both protect themselves, as well as attack.

We will see it in Canada. We will see lots of it. THAT is the "quake" that is underneath us... IMO. Racial divisions are here... and the "Flames" are not always involved.... there are other racists besides the tried and true white redneck.

I am surprised we haven't seen a blow up of the propotions of the Aussie situation here already, perhaps involving the rednecks, or perhaps involving others.

Quite sorry for the lengthy post. Just my two cents after 40 years on this dime. In no way do I intend to offend anyone here.

<ducks and covers for the rebutals....>

[Jayems]

I wont get into this too much, but I will say this.

We, (In Calgary) have the privilage of living in a society where we do not fear for our lives from another culture, social groups, or religious groups.

(See Iraq, Palistine, Israel, Africa, ... etc)

Now, I would like to make a very quick point regarding the happenings in Austrailia, and something that has been going on in England for some time now.

There is a race situation in both places. England has a liberal immigration law, and believes that any group who is in that country has the right to speak what it wants, when it wants, to who ever it wants. Freedom of speech your thinking, right?

I have totally forgot his name, and have been searching for a link for sometime now and have given up. You may have heard of him.

Anyway, he is islamic, and has publicly spoken out against the country that has harboured him for several years. Calling for some sort of Jihad on England. ****ed off a lot of brits. To make matters worse, he is not working and collecting social security. Collecting social security cheques by day, denouncing the country he lives in by night. Pakistani pres. stated that the lax immigration laws have caused the problems that England has to deal with now. Musharraf told reporters at a conference that England can not continue with its policy regarding immigration and their freedom of speech from radical islamic groups.


Anyway, you have to take things like that, plus the race war in Birmingham (UK). When I was home back in 2000, thats when they were going at it. The city was devided by a cross street, and at night, both sides would pummel each other with rocks etc. And it still continues to this day:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...0/s1488684.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...ds/4369508.stm

Basically what Im getting at here, is that we live in a society where we don't deal with racial issues on a daily basis (Thank god). Although I do not agree with either side, I think we have to look at the causes of the issues, not the colours of the people causing the problems.

Before we attack Flame of Liberty of his views, I think we need to take into account what he goes through in that society. We also have to take into account what the muslims go through in that society also.

I think its easy for most of us to be arm-chair philosophers on common race issues that we don't normally deal with in Canada. Until you live it, I don't think we can really say that one side is right, and that no one can express their view on the situation with out being called Closed minded and ignorant.

Don't know if that came out properly, but oh well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4702609.stm

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Sorry for the late reply... I've been a tad busy lately. Hopefully this reply covers Incinerators concerns too.

First of all, I suggest that the term "racist" should not be exclusively assigned to white people. Let's use CP for a parallel analogy.

Assume (just for arguments sake, JUST an example)...

I don't know who implied that the label "racist" should only be applied to white people. You shouldn't get that from me. A racist of any "color", stripe or religion is a moron as far as I see it.

As for the rest of it -- the whole thing is kind of a confusing analogy.

What I got out of it was "our immigration policies are wrong and increased immigration will mean more non-white (aka "fans of other teams") people and problems, like the ones in Australia".

Is that about the gist of it?

If so then I think history has proven that theory quite wrong.

[Jayems]

I think its that immigration is fine, except if you continue to accept radical fundementalists, and allow them to express their hate, you have to deal with that, and its their own fault for not stopping them from coercing youths to take up their ideals.

Kinda like the jehovah's witness. I think thats a cult =). But thats not what this is about.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Footscray

That's some intense hate dude, you should try taking a class on Islam or buying a book, you have a very poor understanding of the faith overall. If everybody in western society had your lack of knowledge and tact we would be living in a pretty ****ty society.

How about you (and Ag) provide some actual arguments, instead of this empty prose. Prove to me that islamic fundamentals are compatible with western society, prove to me that the values are compatible. These two cultures were at war centuries ago, and nothing has changed since. Care to explain to me why is that?

Another thing, I have said that I think that for example Japanese culture is perfectly compatible with western culture. How does that jibe with your he-is-full-of-hate picture of me?

Jayems, good post, at least someone can think critically and not just blindly swallows everything the left serves him on a plate.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

How about you (and Ag) provide some actual arguments, instead of this empty prose. Prove to me that islamic fundamentals are compatible with western society, prove to me that the values are compatible. These two cultures were at war centuries ago, and nothing has changed since. Care to explain to me why is that?

Another thing, I have said that I think that for example Japanese culture is perfectly compatible with western culture. How does that jibe with your he-is-full-of-hate picture of me?

Jayems, good post, at least someone can think critically and not just blindly swallows everything the left serves him on a plate.

Ah yes, the typical old argument.

FoL - My people are better than other peoples.
Footscray - No they're not.
FoL - Prove it.

Why don't YOU prove why Western culture is inherently 'superior' to Islamic culture? Give us some sources, primary resources, authors who back up your statements, etc., etc.

Besides, it's not my responsibility to tell you why your 'theory' is wrong, you have to prove why it's right. Your hypothesis appears to be 'Western Culture is the best, most perfect culture on the planet, and others _must_ assimilate to ours, or be judged worthless' (except for the 'compatible' Japanese, of course).

I'd love to spend hours debating this with you, but I (very seriously) equate it to trying to explain to a white supremecist why blacks should be equal to whites. Distasteful, and not my responsibility. That's the nice thing about 'democracy', you're allowed to be as irrationally bigoted as you want!