Okay, let's accept that there is some nuance to the armed conflicts (both sides can be bad/wrong).
Now do Jamal Khashoggi.
Or women. Or LGBT people.
Do what for what? What are we discussing?
I was just pointing out that the ongoing vilification of the Saudis lacked appropriate context with respect to its response to the Houthis. They have human rights issues Canadians take issue with. So do a vast number of countries around the world that we establish and indulge with trade in (uhh China??). Are we going to just shut ourselves off from everyone? Who are we choosing and why? And why now? And are we ready for the consequences of such huge decisions? Personally I highly doubt it.
I think Canadians are detached from reality a bit as to how the world functions but that’s not a statement that necessarily condones human rights abuses. And again there is a huge difference between Russia and many of these other places. Anyway I’m not sure what you are hoping to discuss, perhaps pulling ourselves off Saudi oil but we know that’s not a near term reality for North America unless you want an unadulterated collapse of North American standard of living or are prepared to outlay the capital to go build a pipeline east (good luck).
Things are the way they are usually because of good reasons.
I was just pointing out that the ongoing vilification of the Saudis lacked appropriate context with respect to its response to the Houthis. They have human rights issues Canadians take issue with. So do a vast number of countries around the world that we establish and indulge with trade in (uhh China??). Are we going to just shut ourselves off from everyone? Who are we choosing and why? And why now? And are we ready for the consequences of such huge decisions? Personally I highly doubt it.
I think Canadians are detached from reality a bit as to how the world functions but that’s not a statement that necessarily condones human rights abuses. And again there is a huge difference between Russia and many of these other places. Anyway I’m not sure what you are hoping to discuss, perhaps pulling ourselves off Saudi oil but we know that’s not a near term reality for North America unless you want an unadulterated collapse of North American standard of living or are prepared to outlay the capital to go build a pipeline east (good luck).
Things are the way they are usually because of good reasons.
I dunno, I just find arguments like:
- "why bother trying to do X when Y exists" or
- "that action will only be a drop in the ocean in this big/bad/complicated world" or
- any other form of whataboutism
...to be lazy and weak.
Russia is no good. Saudi is no good. Lots of other places are no good. We should try to disentangle ourselves as much as possible, even if its hard. It's also okay if we don't manage to do it immediately or completely.
Agree with your last statement with one little correction.
I dunno, I just find arguments like:
- "why bother trying to do X when Y exists" or
- "that action will only be a drop in the ocean in this big/bad/complicated world" or
- any other form of whataboutism
...to be lazy and weak.
Russia is no good. Saudi is no good. Lots of other places are no good. We should try to disentangle ourselves as much as possible, even if its hard. It's also okay if we don't manage to do it immediately or completely.
Agree with your last statement with one little correction.
Hmm I think what I'm getting at is careful what you wish for. Every decision, especially geopolitical ones, may have huge unintended consequences. Also again, the Saudis and Russians are not comparable for multiple reasons.
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You keep bringing this up framing Saudi as the sole bad guys in this, but it is detached from reality and demonstrates a huge ignorance of facts / inability to consider with what is actually going on.
Ah yes, the liberty of freedom that is referred to as Saudi Arabia. I feel so badly for how they’re being “terrorized.” Is this post serious? This is the same royal family that funds terrorism throughout the world.
You keep bringing this up framing Saudi as the sole bad guys in this, but it is detached from reality and demonstrates a huge ignorance of facts / inability to consider with what is actually going on.
The Houthis are a terrorist organization as determined by the UN that launches daily missile / rocket attacks into Saudi Arabia. Just last weekend they blew up a Saudi Aramco site.
Name one country that would stand idle and let a neighbouring territory fire rockets and missiles into its nation without response. The fact that the Houthis hide amongst the Yemeni local population (who of course in large respects support them...) and decide to put their missile / attack launchers in / around civilian buildings, etc. seems to be casually ignored in Saudi's sovereign right to defend itself. So yes your damn right they are going to bomb these people who cowardly decide to go hide amongst local civilian populations. No different than what Canada / States had to do in Afghanistan against the Taliban during those campaigns either.
What would Canada / US do if the people on a nearby side of the border of either country were just launching stray missiles into Vancouver / LA all willy nilly and killing Canadians or Americans and arbitrarily destroying infrastructure? I asked you this in the other thread and didn't get an answer.
You can't walk around condemning the Saudis exclusively here or you sound again, detached from reality and ignorant of who and what the Houthis really are.
There is an ocean of difference between what Saudis are doing and what Russia did and if you cannot see that you may want to read up a bit more on the entire situation and historical context. Was Ukraine launching missiles into Russia for the last 7 years randomly killing Russians? To equate things is patently ridiculous.
Furthermore the Saudis for the last 2 weeks have been trying to have peace discussions as encouraged by the States and the Houthis refused and escalated violence. There are peace talks scheduled for Riyadh and the Houthis won't do it because they "are not on neutral ground" yet have not proposed an alternative. The Saudis are not some exclusive evil regime in this fight so to frame it like this is straight up wrong.
This post reads as though civilian deaths in Yemen are mostly just a bit of collateral damage resulting from Houthis hiding rocket launchers among the population, but the deaths caused by Saudi military aren't even the primary humanitarian crisis there afaik. My understanding is that the blockade by both Saud and the UAE, in addition to the problems of mines and lack of fuel, is resulting in a non-functioning basic economy, famine, and huge numbers of civilian deaths from starvation and lack of access to medicine. Tens of millions of the general population suffering acute malnutrition in the country. Into hundreds of thousands of children dead from malnutrition and starvation in the famine as a country dependent on imports of food and medicine has access to food and medicine blocked by neighbours.
I'm admittedly not all that informed on the situation there though. Maybe you can share more details on that.
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This post reads as though civilian deaths in Yemen are mostly just a bit of collateral damage resulting from Houthis hiding rocket launchers among the population, but the deaths caused by Saudi military aren't even the primary humanitarian crisis there afaik. My understanding is that the blockade by both Saud and the UAE, in addition to the problems of mines and lack of fuel, is resulting in a non-functioning basic economy, famine, and huge numbers of civilian deaths from starvation and lack of access to medicine. Tens of millions of the general population suffering acute malnutrition in the country. Into hundreds of thousands of children dead from malnutrition and starvation in the famine as a country dependent on imports of food and medicine has access to food and medicine blocked by neighbours.
I'm admittedly not all that informed on the situation there though. Maybe you can share more details on that.
Generally speaking you’re right but I’m not sure how everybody proposes the Arab coalition (or anyone for that matter) physically gets food, resources, medical supplies, fuel, etc. to the locals who have been trapped by the Houthis. It’s not so much the Arab coalition blockades as much as it is a combination of the Arab coalition blockades and the Houthis controlling the west of the country. There are two key ports on the west coast of Yemen that could bring in goods and services / food and one in the south. The south has another civil government trying to form its own country as well (Southern Transition Council or STC) but that’s kind of a separate discussion, but they kind of control that port and it’s in a town called Aden, which has had issues as well. The Arab coalition (democratically elected Yemen government /Saudis / UAE / others in the region, that is US / UN backed) has largely controlled Red Sea access to the west coast / Red Sea ports. This is because the Houthis use the ports to bring in weapons, missiles, drones and bombs to attack the Saudis with. So there’s probably some truth for sure to what you are saying but to what degree they are restricting goods and services not too sure. What I can say I have heard is that there are two ports but the Houthis control one for sure and tax the ever loving #### out of stuff coming into the country.
Meanwhile the other issue leading to the water and famine crisis is mainly the Houthis pillaging and plundering of local civilians in western Yemen. Taxes and royalties owing to the Houthis are severe and have destroyed the ability for locals to buy food or other goods (lately there’s been a huge crisis for diesel fuel, for example). There are no real rules of law employed by the Houthis. Teachers have been told they aren’t getting paid anymore, and the ones that are still around are being forced to “teach things differently”, let’s say. Local communities have hence gathered up local salaries to pay teachers to keep them somewhat teaching as much as they can.
It’s a huge mess, and there are no easy solutions as the Houthis have erupted this war because they are Shi’ite and believe this is a holy war and the plan is divine destiny as to their interpretation from the Qu’ran. From this lens it’s easy to see why the Houthis would not “negotiate peace” because they do not believe it’s something to “negotiate over”. Meanwhile the other half the country is largely Sunni and were the democratically elected government, albeit with their issues of corruption, but still representing theoretically the majority of Yemenis wants / desires.
It’s complicated. But anyone thinking the Saudis would (or should for that matter) sit around and just get bombed daily is just delusional.
Last edited by Mr.Coffee; 03-28-2022 at 07:13 PM.
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Ah yes, the liberty of freedom that is referred to as Saudi Arabia. I feel so badly for how they’re being “terrorized.” Is this post serious? This is the same royal family that funds terrorism throughout the world.
Hmm I think what I'm getting at is careful what you wish for. Every decision, especially geopolitical ones, may have huge unintended consequences. Also again, the Saudis and Russians are not comparable for multiple reasons.
I agree, but the flip side can also be true - ie. the decisions (or perhaps 'inactions') that lead us to our current state of 'dependence' have had [and will continue to have] unintended consequences, too.
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Divesting from Russian resources is a good thing for many reasons, but let's not pretend that shifting away from fossil fuels would be some sort of humanitarian win. Look at where a large portion of the metals that are needed for the renewable industry come from and you'll see it's a real who's-who of human/environmental rights champions to pal around with. Cobalt (70%) from Congo, Rare-earths (80%+) from China, Palladium (30%) from uh, Russia. Unless we here in the West are prepared to increase our share of the dirty work (ie. the actual mining and processing), under the same high standards and regulations as the fossil fuel industry functions under now, I don't see how renewables lead to an improvement on the humanitarian front.
Also, we also have to be weary of shifting our energy security out of our hands. China alone completely dominates the solar market (97% share of silicon wafers production, 79% share of PV cells and 67% share of polysilicon, as of 2019 ). If there was a large scale shift of energy to solar, we effectively put our energy security in their hands. The last month of war should be a giant warning flag about what happens when any region puts its energy security in the hands of another. You are effectively crippled to do anything of consequence.
I'm all for divesting from Russia, but let's make sure that we're not just setting the foundation for the next conflict.
It's not off topic at all. Table 5 talked about "let's not try to move away from fossil fuels anytime soon, because reasons". I showed why his type of thinking is flawed. Current solar technology is not necessarily the technology that will dictate how we generate our energy in the future.
It's not off topic at all. Table 5 talked about "let's not try to move away from fossil fuels anytime soon, because reasons". I showed why his type of thinking is flawed. Current solar technology is not necessarily the technology that will dictate how we generate our energy in the future.
Yet you did not show how we generate our energy in the future.
Yet you did not show how we generate our energy in the future.
You provide hope! Yet not a solution.
Perovskite solar technology is a lot closer to being a real solution than just being "hope". Just a few challenges to overcome, but developers of the technology are getting closer and closer to overcoming them.
Anyways, the overarching point is well made. Current widely used technologies are not the bounds that we are confined to when thinking about how to solve today's major problems.
We should absolutely always be pushing forward with innovation and new tech, as we don't know where things will lead. Perovskite has shown promise... although so far, not at any scale, and it still has huge decaying issues (it lasts for months, compared to silicon panels which can last for 20+ years). I find solar great in small applications, but as of now and in the foreseeable future, solar is not something economies will rely on at a large scale for baseload energy.
Also one thing to keep in mind, is that even if you make solar panels dirt cheap and efficient, if you want to make it reliable 24 hours a day, you still need to store that energy somewhere...and that requires large-scale battery tech...which requires an ass-ton of minerals... which requires an ass-ton of mining. We should always be in pursuit of the most efficient and cleanest forms, but there is no such thing as resource free energy. It does not, and will not, exist.
HOWEVER...there is already a pretty magical green technology out there we can use for stable large scale electricity generation. It's reliable. It's extremely energy dense. It can be used for baseload energy. It's proven and safe. It's extremely clean. It has a small physical footprint (you'd need 75x more landmass for the same amount of solar energy!). It can be used day and night, in cold and hot, anywhere on earth. Any guesses what this magical tech is?
As a kid I had a solar powered watch. I loved the idea of it and for me it worked. Unless it was a cloudy day.
I think we tend to overestimate the effect of clouds. Solar radiation travels 150 million kms to reach the earth and then passes through another 3000km of atmospheric layers before reaching the surface. But we think a few water droplets getting together for an orgy in the last few kms are some sort of impenetrable barrier (for either solar panels or sun burns)
The variable rates of production pose many challenges. But, every energy source faces many challenges en route to it's final point of consumption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Table 5
We should absolutely always be pushing forward with innovation and new tech, as we don't know where things will lead. Perovskite has shown promise... although so far, not at any scale, and it still has huge decaying issues (it lasts for months, compared to silicon panels which can last for 20+ years). I find solar great in small applications, but as of now and in the foreseeable future, solar is not something economies will rely on at a large scale for baseload energy.
Also one thing to keep in mind, is that even if you make solar panels dirt cheap and efficient, if you want to make it reliable 24 hours a day, you still need to store that energy somewhere...and that requires large-scale battery tech...which requires an ass-ton of minerals... which requires an ass-ton of mining. We should always be in pursuit of the most efficient and cleanest forms, but there is no such thing as resource free energy. It does not, and will not, exist.
HOWEVER...there is already a pretty magical green technology out there we can use for stable large scale electricity generation. It's reliable. It's extremely energy dense. It can be used for baseload energy. It's proven and safe. It's extremely clean. It has a small physical footprint (you'd need 75x more landmass for the same amount of solar energy!). It can be used day and night, in cold and hot, anywhere on earth. Any guesses what this magical tech is?
Some sort of fart capture machine?
As to the storage side, batteries are definitely an option (and probably the best option), but certainly not the only option. There is lots of work happening on other energy 'storage' solutions - e.g. using wind/solar to power a pump that refills a hydroelectric reservoir, which can then be used to generate more predictable or on-demand energy.
Solar is pretty usless in January, and you can't store the amonut of power needed to cover that time in a battery. We also don't have much for water storage reservoirs for pumped hydro. Solar is great as low cost energy in the summer when the sun is shining, but you still need a way to cover that in the winter.
