Tkachuk > Lindholm

[iggyloob12]

Lindholm plays the more important position but …

[looooob]

not going to dispute that Lindholm plays a more important position, will represent better value going forward, and has intangible attributes that Tkachuk doesn't have


however, I think it is fair to still recognize that there is a 3 year age difference between these players- Tkachuk is younger than (amongst others Mangiapane, Vladar, Kylington, Gawdin,Mackey etc).

[CsInMyBlood]

Hash marks down I dont think there are many better players in the league than Tkachuk.

200 feet, not many better than Lindholm.

Together, sprinkled with some Johnny magic, they are a beautiful thing.

[Classic_Sniper]

Not going to argue with anyone who wants to rank the members on the top line, I think it depends on the eye of the beholder as people value things differently. So I find it difficult to really rank them and even if I did, the difference would be small. So there’s no point in my opinion, I love all 3.

For me, I’ll just say what I said last season about this trio. These 3 in my opinion, drive different aspects of their line. Gaudreau drives the rush, Tkachuk drives the cycle and Lindholm drives the checking game. All 3 guys are very competent in all 3 areas as well, so it’s easy to see why they have chemistry.

This is also what makes them so difficult to stop. In the past, a relatively successful line in Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm were very dependent on the rush which is why they were so easy to shut down in the playoffs. They could occasionally check, but I didn’t like how disconnected they seemed to be. Their cycle game was also just ok, whereas now with Tkachuk, they cycle magnificently.

Their rush game is probably as good as the previous Gatorade line, but their checking game with Lindholm now driving it up the middle and on both ends is probably the biggest difference I’ve noticed. When they’re at their best, they give the opposition nothing and take everything from them. It’s truly a thing of beauty. It’s probably why their goal differential and plus/minus looks so absurd as well.

Truth is, rank em however you want them, I’m just glad they’re together because they’ve completely transformed the team. They’re a factor in basically every game give the team a chance to win every game. I hope they all re-sign and we can have 10 more years with this trio.

[Hack&Lube]

Lindholm glues them together and creates the success for Tkachuk.

It's a flawed analysis using stats for when they are playing together because the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Tkachuk was nowhere near this good on the 3M line.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Lindholm glues them together and creates the success for Tkachuk.

It's a flawed analysis using stats for when they are playing together because the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Tkachuk was nowhere near this good on the 3M line.

Maybe not in terms of sheer points. But I thought the 3M line (incl. Mangiapane) was easily the best line on the team in 2019-20. They the main reason the Flames beat the Jets in the play-in rounds.

Although, you’re probably right overall. The current top line is vastly better than the 3M line or really, any line that I’ve ever seen as a Flames fan. Even when I was just a kid watching Conroy-Iggy light it up for what was it, 20 goals in 20 games or something like that?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Maybe not in terms of sheer points. But I thought the 3M line (incl. Mangiapane) was easily the best line on the team in 2019-20. They the main reason the Flames beat the Jets in the play-in rounds.

Although, you’re probably right overall. The current top line is vastly better than the 3M line or really, any line that I’ve ever seen as a Flames fan. Even when I was just a kid watching Conroy-Iggy light it up for what was it, 20 goals in 20 games or something like that?

We tried for decades to find a number one center for Iginla. Savard was traded much too soon. Conroy was great for a few years but he was never a true #1. Jokinen was impressive for game 1 and then dropped off.

We finally have a #1 centre in Lindholm for the first time since the amazing 80s teams.

Look at 1989 Centers

Joe Nieuwendyk
Doug Gilmour
Joel Otto
Jiri Hrdina

Was Gilmour our 2nd line centre back then?

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Ullr

Johnny > Tkachuk > Lindholm >>>>>> Mangiapane >>>>>>>> every other forward on the Flames

Johnny > Tkachuk = Lindholm > Toffoli > Mangiapane >>> every other forward.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

We tried for decades to find a number one center for Iginla. Savard was traded much too soon. Conroy was great for a few years but he was never a true #2. Jokinen was impressive for game 1 and then dropped off.

We finally have a #1 centre in Lindholm for the first time since the amazing 80s teams.

Look at 1989 Centers

Joe Nieuwendyk
Doug Gilmour
Joel Otto
Jiri Hrdina

Was Gilmour our 2nd line centre back then?

The Gilmour line (with Joey Mullen on his right) were the Flames best line in 89 (IMO), although the Nieuwendyk line (with Loob on his right) were likely the strong line in 88 (with Bullard instead of Gilmour)


really that was as close as a 1a/1b set up as you are going to get . 2 Hall of Fame Centers and the first team allstar RW of 87-88 (Loob) and 88-89 Mullen, with in the case of the 89 team the defensive conscience and or bulk being provided by Roberts and Patterson


Fleury was a center from much of the back half of that season, with Hrdina moved to wing

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Johnny > Tkachuk = Lindholm > Toffoli > Mangiapane >>> every other forward.

Toffoli is awesome, but dude...

[looooob]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Johnny > Tkachuk = Lindholm > Toffoli > Mangiapane >>> every other forward.

IMO I know people have tired of Backlund, but he does a lot of heavy lifting still. he and Coleman are both in the conversation and not <<< behind number 5 (IMO) maybe just <<

[Kovaz]

I wouldn't read much into a head-to-head comparison between two players that play 90% of their ice time together. It's gonna be such a small sample size that any conclusion is meaningless. We're talking about ~30-40 seconds per game, half of it mid line change.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by looooob

IMO I know people have tired of Backlund, but he does a lot of heavy lifting still. he and Coleman are both in the conversation and not <<< behind number 5 (IMO) maybe just <<

I find people are way too hard on Backlund. It can’t be easy always having to step out on the same ice as all the top elite lines every game. He basically has to worry about not getting scored on against these 100+ point beasts while hopefully trying to score himself and I think he’s done a pretty good job of that this season. He hasn’t been on the ice for the least 5 on 5 goals against amongst all regulars which is mighty impressive given his shutdown role.

His numbers started off slow, but he’s pretty much on pace for his usual 40 point season and he generates that mostly at even strength. I thought he was the team’s best player in the 2020 playoffs and I suspect he will have another big playoff performance come May.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Toffoli is awesome, but dude...

What?

He's currently ahead of Mangiapane.

Eat Bread hasn't accomplished near what Tyler has yet. Nothing wrong with that. He's well on his way.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

What?

He's currently ahead of Mangiapane.

Eat Bread hasn't accomplished near what Tyler has yet. Nothing wrong with that. He's well on his way.

Agreed. Toffoli had a better year last year than Mangiapane is this year, and he's scoring at an even higher rate as a Flame. Plus a couple of solid playoff runs - Toffoli is well established at a level that Mangiapane's just establishing himself.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

What?

He's currently ahead of Mangiapane.

Eat Bread hasn't accomplished near what Tyler has yet. Nothing wrong with that. He's well on his way.

In points, yes. On the surface it may seem like Toffoli is the better player. But a delve into advanced stats reveals a very different picture.

[Macman]

They compliment each other well but Elias Lindholm is a center as mentioned. Before Lindholm came to the Flames he didn't have the stats like he does now but he's still a good player on his own.

I like Tkachuk a lot but Lindholm's contract alone is another consideration.

I don't know if I could say one is better than the other though, Tkachuk will get paid a lot more and already is with his current contract.

I'd have to say it's a draw honestly and Tkachuk plays a bit of a different roll as a power forward/winger compared to the Selke like center. You can compare them on quite a few levels actually.

Lindholm is really on an underrated contract.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Chucky's 5-on-5 GF% and xGF% are higher than Lindy's. It's an open and shut case without needing to write a whole article about it.

However, Chucky is about to make $9M next year and more than that in the years following (or above $9M starting next season if he signs a long term extension this summer). Lindy is under contract for under $5M for this and 2 more years. Bang for buck goes to Lindy and it isn't close.

Sure. If awards were handed out based on xGF%.

But there is a little more to the game than that.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Arguing about these two guys?

Nice problem to have.

[BoLevi]

I think it's interesting that most of the #1 centres in the league have been heralded since they were about 14 year old top prospects

We just sort of magicked Lindholm up.