Hall of Fame Goalies

[Buff]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Since 1980 only Fuhr, Roy, Brodeur, and Billy Smith I believe have been to the finals 4 or more times as a goalie.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Mike Vernon:
1986 - Flames loss to Montreal (1-4)
1989 - Flames win over Montreal (4-2)
1995 - Detroit loss to New Jersey (0-4)
1997 - Detroit win over Philadelphia (4-0)

I never really knew this stat before though. So, Vernon is one of only five goalies who made it to the Stanley Cup finals four or more times as a starting goalie... why isn't Vernon in the Hall of Fame? He won two Cups and was the Conn Smythe winner in his second Cup victory and a strong candidate in his 1st too!

Did some more looking into Vernon's stats
All-Time Regular season wins: 16th
All-time Playoff Wins: 8th
All-time Stanley Cup Final Wins: 16th

[getbak]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Since 1980 only Fuhr, Roy, Brodeur, and Billy Smith I believe have been to the finals 4 or more times as a goalie.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

If you count times in the Finals as a both a starter and a backup, you'd also have Moog, Osgood, and Fleury.

Moog went to two Finals as a starter (1983 and 1990) and 4 as a backup (84, 85, 87, and 88). Osgood was Vernon's backup in 1995 and 1997, and the starter in 1998, 2008, and 2009. Fleury was the starter in 2008 and 2009 for the Pens, and the backup in 2016 and 2017, then starter again for Vegas in 2018.


2017 was a weird one for Fleury because he actually started and won more playoff games than Murray, but he didn't play at all in the Final round. Weirdly, the same thing could happen this season if Vegas stays with Lehner the rest of the way.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Buff

Mike Vernon:
1986 - Flames loss to Montreal (1-4)
1989 - Flames win over Montreal (4-2)
1995 - Detroit loss to New Jersey (0-4)
1997 - Detroit win over Philadelphia (4-0)

I never really knew this stat before though. So, Vernon is one of only five goalies who made it to the Stanley Cup finals four or more times as a starting goalie... why isn't Vernon in the Hall of Fame? He won two Cups and was the Conn Smythe winner in his second Cup victory and a strong candidate in his 1st too!

His counting stats are pedestrian.

I think it’s so strange that a Hall of Fame has decided to completely ignore an entire segment of its most famous players.

Every guy we’re talking about except Thomas was a guy that every hockey fan knew and respected for a decade plus. And Thomas piled up the hardware and stats to deserve entrance.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally Posted by getbak

If you count times in the Finals as a both a starter and a backup, you'd also have Moog, Osgood, and Fleury.

Moog went to two Finals as a starter (1983 and 1990) and 4 as a backup (84, 85, 87, and 88). Osgood was Vernon's backup in 1995 and 1997, and the starter in 1998, 2008, and 2009. Fleury was the starter in 2008 and 2009 for the Pens, and the backup in 2016 and 2017, then starter again for Vegas in 2018.


2017 was a weird one for Fleury because he actually started and won more playoff games than Murray, but he didn't play at all in the Final round. Weirdly, the same thing could happen this season if Vegas stays with Lehner the rest of the way.

I meant starter.

My non scientific method of determining HOF players is my 5-7 rule.

Was the player in the top 5-7 of his position for at least 5-7 years?

Vernon - questionable.

MAF - questionable.

On Vernon, the overall accomplishments speak volumes. However for me as a Flames fan the failures as there too.

What happens in 1991 if he stops that shot from Tikannen? Not the OT goal but the first goal when CGY was up 3-0.

At the end I think Vernon should get in. He was better than Ranford, MacLean, Hrudey, Richter, Barrasso, Hextall, etc...

I think Roy, Broduer, Belfour and Hasek were better. Hasek is the greatest goalie to ever live IMO. But I am sure older fans will disagree.

The one I struggle with is Joseph. Could never win the big game. But so good and so steady for so long.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

His counting stats are pedestrian.

So are Grant Fuhr and Billy Smith's.

Of the three of them, Vernon's career GAA is the only one below 3.00. His career SV% is better than Fuhr's and only 0.001 worse than Smith's.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I meant starter.

My non scientific method of determining HOF players is my 5-7 rule.

Was the player in the top 5-7 of his position for at least 5-7 years?

Vernon - questionable.

MAF - questionable.

On Vernon, the overall accomplishments speak volumes. However for me as a Flames fan the failures as there too.

What happens in 1991 if he stops that shot from Tikannen? Not the OT goal but the first goal when CGY was up 3-0.

At the end I think Vernon should get in. He was better than Ranford, MacLean, Hrudey, Richter, Barrasso, Hextall, etc...

I think Roy, Broduer, Belfour and Hasek were better. Hasek is the greatest goalie to ever live IMO. But I am sure older fans will disagree.

The one I struggle with is Joseph. Could never win the big game. But so good and so steady for so long.

This is me too. I still see Krushelnyski's weak shot floating into the net with Vernon falling backwards with his tiny arms unable to reach it. And like I said before, Vernon won cups on an incredibly stacked 89 Flames and the Wings, which may work against him. To some extent the fact he and Osgood were on the same team and won overlapping cups works against them ("see, those Wings can win no matter who their starter is").

Matt Murray will have two cup rings (at least) when he retires but no one talks about him going to the HOF for obvious reasons - he just isn't an elite goalie.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by getbak

So are Grant Fuhr and Billy Smith's.

Of the three of them, Vernon's career GAA is the only one below 3.00. His career SV% is better than Fuhr's and only 0.001 worse than Smith's.

Hey, I’m with you, I think he should be in.

385 wins, 2 rings, playing in the 80s 3 hours south of the Gretzky Oilers for the bulk of his prime.

And he still went to two finals.

You can’t just beat the Gretzky Oilers with some scrub in net.

[GreenLantern2814]

Oh, and on the subject of Curtis Joseph’s World Cup performance- he was the starter on that team over Brodeur. He was better in that tournament than Marty, by a lot.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Hey, I’m with you, I think he should be in.

385 wins, 2 rings, playing in the 80s 3 hours south of the Gretzky Oilers for the bulk of his prime.

And he still went to two finals.

You can’t just beat the Gretzky Oilers with some scrub in net.

We didn't start to have success against them until Vernon came along.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This is me too. I still see Krushelnyski's weak shot floating into the net with Vernon falling backwards with his tiny arms unable to reach it. And like I said before, Vernon won cups on an incredibly stacked 89 Flames and the Wings, which may work against him. To some extent the fact he and Osgood were on the same team and won overlapping cups works against them ("see, those Wings can win no matter who their starter is").

Matt Murray will have two cup rings (at least) when he retires but no one talks about him going to the HOF for obvious reasons - he just isn't an elite goalie.

Vernon won a Conn Smythe with the Wings, how exactly would that work against him? He also beat the best playoff goalie ever for a cup for Calgary.

Brodeur gets all the accolades on the wings of his regular season stats. He's miles behind Roy in playoff wins. Zero Conn Smythe wins to Roy's 3 as well.

[mikephoen]

Goalies suck. Don't let any of them in anywhere.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Goalies suck. Don't let any of them in anywhere.

Show me on a MacFarlane where a goalie hurt you.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I meant starter.

My non scientific method of determining HOF players is my 5-7 rule.

Was the player in the top 5-7 of his position for at least 5-7 years?

This method would exclude like 80% of the current hall for skaters.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by habernac

He also beat the best playoff goalie ever for a cup for Calgary.

Also, in the Conference Final on the way to the Cup in 1997.


I believe in the playoffs, head-to-head against Roy, Vernon won 2 rounds (1989, 1997) and lost 2 (1986, 1999).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by habernac

Vernon won a Conn Smythe with the Wings, how exactly would that work against him? He also beat the best playoff goalie ever for a cup for Calgary.

Brodeur gets all the accolades on the wings of his regular season stats. He's miles behind Roy in playoff wins. Zero Conn Smythe wins to Roy's 3 as well.

Because the Wings were a phenomenal team, who then proceeded to win another cup without him. His Connie helps obviously. As for who he beat with Calgary, that's really irrelevant. It's not like he was the one who scored on Roy (BTW, best PO goalie? Ken Dryden says hi).

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally Posted by habernac

Vernon won a Conn Smythe with the Wings, how exactly would that work against him? He also beat the best playoff goalie ever for a cup for Calgary.

Brodeur gets all the accolades on the wings of his regular season stats. He's miles behind Roy in playoff wins. Zero Conn Smythe wins to Roy's 3 as well.

Yeah it’s an odd argument. He won the Conn Smythe, so one could argue he carried the Red Wings to that cup.

[Northendzone]

always hard to separate the goalie from the team in front of him.

i always think one simple test for the hall of fame is - would i pay money to go and watch him play.

dryden, broduer, roy - all yes (under this metric, kipper would get a vote from me). osgood, maf, crawford - no.

to me a guy like joesph (who i did not mention in my list above). Other names that come to my mind - Belfour, Hasek.

Osgood belongs in the hall of pretty good/better than most.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Yeah it’s an odd argument. He won the Conn Smythe, so one could argue he carried the Red Wings to that cup.

Ot it could be that the whole team was so strong that they couldn't pick a single skater and went "Ok, let's go with the goalie".

I doubt anyone seriously thinks Vernon "carried" Fedorov, Yzerman, Coffey, Kozlov, Larionov, Lidstrom, Shanahan, et al. Especially when the identical team won the next year with a different goalie after the Wings chose Osgood over Vernon and traded him away before the expansion draft.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Buff

Mike Vernon:
1986 - Flames loss to Montreal (1-4)
1989 - Flames win over Montreal (4-2)
1995 - Detroit loss to New Jersey (0-4)
1997 - Detroit win over Philadelphia (4-0)

I never really knew this stat before though. So, Vernon is one of only five goalies who made it to the Stanley Cup finals four or more times as a starting goalie... why isn't Vernon in the Hall of Fame? He won two Cups and was the Conn Smythe winner in his second Cup victory and a strong candidate in his 1st too!

Did some more looking into Vernon's stats
All-Time Regular season wins: 16th
All-time Playoff Wins: 8th
All-time Stanley Cup Final Wins: 16th

The arguments against having Vernon in the HHOF are pretty sound:

• Minimal accolades. 14 other goalies received AS votes in the one season that he was a 2nd team AS, including Greg Millen who was 3rd in voting (and awful). The Conn Smythe and one year as a Vezina runner-up is nice, but those are the only accolades that he has.

• It was easy to stand-out in a 21 team league. Consistently being a top 4-10 goalie isn't that impressive when you're only competing against 15-20 other starting goalies.

• His best seasons were on some of the best rosters of all-time - late 80s Flames and mid-90s Red Wings. It's hard to separate the player from the team, but lets be real...any other good or above average goalie could have gotten Vernon's results with five or more HHOF-caliber players in front of them.

• His peak wasn't long enough. Tim Thomas' incredible three year run isn't long enough to get him into the HHOF and Thomas' three best seasons are better than Vernon's three best seasons.

Then you add in Vernon's streakiness and tendency for soft goals, which deservedly hurts his reputation.

[MrMike]

So by these standards you need to be a really good goalie and on a really good team. If Luongo was on the Redwings and Lundquist was a Penguin, they’d be locks for HOF.