I agree with everything your said Sliver, except for one: I am not interested in hearing who here believes homosexuality is a sin or that same-sex unions should not be recognized. If you're one of those people, you're welcome to stay quiet and go #### yourself for all I care. But that's just me.
Baby Erin O'Toole 100% agrees with you on this point.
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Honestly, at least they are being up front and honest with their stance now. That previous push they were making about homosexuality not being a sin...as long as you never act on it in any way, was pretty offensive. It was getting very tiresome listening to anti-gay advocates push their views as progressive and accepting. The argument that they were okay with homosexuality, but if a homosexual ever acted on their urges they would spend an eternity suffering, was anything but progressive or accepting.
Actually, that still appears to be the stance if you read the Vatican release linked earlier. They don't actually call homosexuality a sin (the CNN headline is clickbait rubbish) but they actually state that anyone living outside of Church recognized wedlock (man + woman) is living in sin, whether heterosexual or homosexual.
So, you're right on what they say - being homosexual is not a sin, but acting on it is.
To be honest, I'm having a hard time getting worked up over this. It's not because I agree with the Vatican. They are completely wrong on this (and lots of stuff). Rather, this is who they are and who they've always been. This statement is very consistent with the identity of the Vatican. One could go so far as to say that they believe that we are all sinners because of the "original sin". However, that they have singled out homosexuals makes it clear that this isn't your run of the mill sin like eating shell fish, mixing fabrics or working your ass on the wrong day of the week. Clearly, they seem to believe that you can cheat on your spouse, hurt animals, embezzle funds and lie with impunity as long as you don't love the 'wrong' person.
There is almost certainly no God, at least not the kind described by any religion. If there were I think Zhe would have a special room set aside that includes heating elements, bullet ants and country music for those that hide behind religion to suppress the rights of their fellow humans.
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Considering the practically criminal over-population issues we're having in conjunction with the use of energy and other resources we should consider Homosexuality preferable.
I mean, I keep hearing all this nonsense talk about 'The Gay Agenda.'
I'd like to hear it. Perhaps they have some good ideas.
The Catholic Church though....man those guys are out of touch. 'Being Gay is a Sin?'
What year do they think this is?
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I would say many religious people, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise, in Canada specifically and the west generally, are good people. Most of these people may be religious, but they can make their own decisions on how they feel about gay people (among hundreds of other things). I've met plenty of religious people who are fully supportive of the lives and rights of the LGBTQ+ community. And I believe in defending good people and the right for people to follow a religion that may also include a lot of people that hate or think lesser of LGBTQ+ people. Because we all have the power to make our own decisions and I fully respect the countless people who seek spiritful fulfillment while realizing the religion they choose to follow is not absolute.
In response to this paragraph I would say for myself that I've seen this perspective also, but I do wonder how much of it is "as long as it's not within my own family" kind of thinking. It's easy to be supportive when it has no impact to your life at all (and in general, this is the whole reason how people should feel about this), but if their children turn out to not be hetrosexual or cisgendered, how truly supportive are they then? That's what I feel is hard to gauged looking from the outside.
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Personally, I've long moved past the idea that institutions like the Catholic Church would ever accept me. I'm happy that the people that I care about the most accept me for who I am. I'm happy that I accept myself for who I am. However, there are lots of people who are raised in the Church and when they hear this messaging they are deeply damaged by it. They'll try to pray it away, hope it away, but it just never goes away.
The messaging that it is ok to be gay as long as you don't act on it is the equivalent of saying it's ok to be hungry as long as you don't eat. Sexuality is a big part of someone's life. Denying someone from experiencing their sexuality is reprehensible.
Last edited by ben voyonsdonc; 03-15-2021 at 11:26 AM.
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Their whole stance stems from ANYTHING outside of sex for the sole purpose of procreation is a sin. So you jerked off? Sin. Wife gave you a beej? Sin. You banged two women at the same time? Sin. So yeah, gay sex is also sin for them. By extension, this is why abortion is a sin as it is not procreating.
My cynicism leads me to think that through the middle ages, mortality was so high they needed a way to convince the populace to pump out babies since 50% of them die. Big population is good for business, and that's really what it boils down to. The church was fabulously rich while everyone was poor. Best way to get the serfs to procreate is guilt them by making everything a sin. Gay people are having zero babies, so they make that a sin.
Since it takes about 500 years for the Church to change anything, look for this not to change in your lifetime. The gross hypocrisy and corruption is of course not lost on me.
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Actually, that still appears to be the stance if you read the Vatican release linked earlier. They don't actually call homosexuality a sin (the CNN headline is clickbait rubbish) but they actually state that anyone living outside of Church recognized wedlock (man + woman) is living in sin, whether heterosexual or homosexual.
So, you're right on what they say - being homosexual is not a sin, but acting on it is.
It's this kind of contradictory, mental gymnastics stuff that made me leave the church. As George Carlin said, I was Catholic until I reached the age of reason. I just couldn't figure out how or why they pick and chose what they pick and chose from a book that is supposed to be the word of God. I also couldn't, as a 13 year old, figure out why no one else was asking the same questions I was. I couldn't rationalize my way back to faith.
It also struck me as stupid that a faith that stressed foundations in love were primary proponents of preventing it for "reasons". Oh, and the unbaptized babies going to Hell/Limbo wasn't too endearing, either.
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I left the church in the early 90's when they found out how they treated my brother who was dying, my parents contacted the priest to give last rights, but he was to busy with "church business" probably counting money, to come out right away, so my brother died without last rights, my parents were devastated because he couldn't be buried in the church grave yard according to the church. But my parents believed in forgiveness, and also believed that the church was important for our spiritual protection. (BTW he was a baby wen he died, so I never knew my brother, I often wonder what happened if I had an older brother to help me face off against my three older sisters).
My parents were forgiving, I was not, the minute I got the whole story and realized that the Vatican and the church were huge money institutions and linked it to my brother I never really went back. Sure I went to weddings and funerals but I'm not religious.
I don't discourage people from going or finding their spirtual comfort or strength with the church. To each their own.
The labeling of homosexuals as sinners, the cover up of abuses on a casual level really made me realize how despicable the church is.
But I've come to realize that I don't need a building or a organized religion to believe in god, or get spiritual comfort from the idea of a god. Or to even for example talk to god.
the question for me, is, "Is there a god". I've never come up with a definitive answer, However I believe that God if there is one had the attention of a 12 year old, and abandoned us a long time ago as a failed shoe box experiment that lives under his bed.
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There are other religions that not wearing hats an egregious sin, or certain people wearing hats, and beyond that horrendous women's rights issues that are far from being overcome. That's just to catch up to the Catholics.
I think what is disappointing to most people, is that a lot of the base subscribers to Catholicism have evolved past the tenets of the religion itself. Except of course for those that don't believe in evolution.
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Catholics (unlike evangelicals) are often much less doctrinaire than their church but this messaging gives homophobic Catholics especially in countries like Poland even more ammunition to beat up queer people.
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I realize Catholicism/Christianity is hateful already - that they believe non-Christians are going to burn in an eternal hell is abhorrent - but this is a more targeted hate versus their typical shot-gun approach to hate.
We all know gay people. At this point in 2021 to view their mere existence a sin is an a-hole move of the highest order. I suppose it's not really the church calling it a sin, though, it's actually straight from God per their statement.
I encourage you to read the statement here. I think we can get a little numb to the absurdity of religious texts by virtue of their age, but reading something so preposterous in 2021, written in 2021, hit me hard today. Like, they quote God as though 1. he's real and 2. he weighed in on this issue. GFY. It's just so ridiculous.
According to the Catholic Church of which there are 1.3 billion members worldwide, if you're in a gay relationship you are not in a licit relationship because “there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family.”
I don't know how people can follow this ####. Like, really, maybe you were cool with the church sheltering pedophiles for hundreds of years because you like their stories and cool architecture, but does this give you pause? At what point is the church a hate group? They are diminishing the lives of gay people by labeling their relationships as lesser-than. This will result in more discrimination against gay people. And to think there are Calgarians in this club. And schools preaching this crap. Imagine being a closeted 16-year-old gay student today how you'd feel walking into your Catholic school this morning...there should be outrage at this and people should be renouncing their faith.
Any Catholics want to weigh in on this? Do you actually give credence to the authority of these old virgins sitting in their palace? Do you think homosexuality is a sin? Do you really think your god views gay people as living sinful lives? I can't seem to put my brain in a spot where any of this thinking is reasonable. Would you look a gay couple in the eye and tell them they are sinners and in an illicit union in the eyes of god?
I like to be proud of the organizations in which I'm involved. If I were Catholic, today would be a very tough day. To release this statement is embarrassing and shameful.
Being raised catholic, and living as a fairly "casual" catholic, the bolded is absolutely no business of any one individual to do this. I know there is something about "not judging others" that we are all to live by. We have gay members in our family and friends who are gay. We love them and support them unconditionally, I don't care what any religious stance is. I look at church like I do the sales training courses I am required to take. You have to determine what applies to you and what doesn't, and take from it what is going to help you in life going forward. Really there should be a "new modern catholic" branch would openly condemn the past acts of pedophilia, greed and bigotry while embracing new ways of thinking and beliefs.
The church labels homosexuality as a sin along with many other common place sins; abortion, divorce, adultery, pre marital sex, masturbation, suicide, drug abuse, and on and on. Now if someone completely dis agrees with religion, or is totally apathetic with regards to religion, or is an atheist, what bearing does the Catholic churches stance have on any of this? You can be a catholic yet still not hold the same views as the church on every single matter. And I know myself along with many more "staunch Catholics" believe this and live this way.
The catholic church has become the whipping boy when it comes to religion however. Ask the Baptists, the Mormons, the Buddhists and Islamists what their churches stance is on homosexual relationships and the true answers will be far worse then "they are sinners'. While you are at it ask the Mormons what their stance is on those of African American heritage. I mean based on any and all religions we are all sinners. The catholic stance on this is no different then most every other religion in the world, while some other relgions still believe in stoning gays, setting them on fore or throwing them off of bridges.
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Last edited by Derek Sutton; 03-15-2021 at 12:02 PM.
Being raised catholic, and living as a fairly "casual" catholic, the bolded is absolutely no business of any one individual to do this. I know there is something about "not judging others" that we are all to live by. We have gay members in our family and friends who are gay. We love them and support them unconditionally, I don't care what any religious stance is.
The church labels homosexuality as a sin along with many other common place sins; abortion, divorce, adultery, pre marital sex, masturbation, suicide, drug abuse, and on and on. Now if someone completely dis agrees with religion, or is totally apathetic with regards to religion, or is an atheist, what bearing does the Catholic churches stance have on any of this? You can be a catholic yet still not hold the same views as the church on every single matter. And I know myself along with many more "staunch Catholics" believe this and live this way.
The catholic church has become the whipping boy when it comes to religion however. Ask the Baptists, the Mormons, the Buddhists and Islamists what their churches stance is on homosexual relationships and the true answers will be far worse then "they are sinners'. While you are at it ask the Mormons what their stance is on those of African American heritage. I mean based on any and all religions we are all sinners. The catholic stance on this is no different then most every other religion in the world. They are not setting same sex couples on fire or throwing them off of bridges.
Is that how you justify bigotry? Others do it to, and worse, so it's fine if my club does it? If you support an organization that discriminates on things like gender and sexuality, I'm sorry to break the news to you, but you are part of the problem.
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Being raised catholic, and living as a fairly "casual" catholic, the bolded is absolutely no business of any one individual to do this. I know there is something about "not judging others" that we are all to live by. We have gay members in our family and friends who are gay. We love them and support them unconditionally, I don't care what any religious stance is. I look at church like I do the sales training courses I am required to take. You have to determine what applies to you and what doesn't, and take from it what is going to help you in life going forward.
The church labels homosexuality as a sin along with many other common place sins; abortion, divorce, adultery, pre marital sex, masturbation, suicide, drug abuse, and on and on. Now if someone completely dis agrees with religion, or is totally apathetic with regards to religion, or is an atheist, what bearing does the Catholic churches stance have on any of this? You can be a catholic yet still not hold the same views as the church on every single matter. And I know myself along with many more "staunch Catholics" believe this and live this way.
The catholic church has become the whipping boy when it comes to religion however. Ask the Baptists, the Mormons, the Buddhists and Islamists what their churches stance is on homosexual relationships and the true answers will be far worse then "they are sinners'. While you are at it ask the Mormons what their stance is on those of African American heritage. I mean based on any and all religions we are all sinners. The catholic stance on this is no different then most every other religion in the world. They are not setting same sex couples on fire or throwing them off of bridges.
I agree with a lot of what you've said.
To be clear: Catholic doctrine does not 100% align with Christianity... don't ask me for specifics but it's more staunch. Just like Baptists or Mormons etc... Yes there are shades of grey, so to speak. But also Christians as individuals have their own brains and prejudices and can make their own good/bad/ethical/moral-based decisions. Just like non-Christians. But so far this whole thread seems to be railing on at others about judging... Prejudice comes in many flavors for sure.
To me this current subject matter really is just a distraction from much larger and more pressing issues in my life... such as job security, covid, liberal government, Alberta's economy, future of our youth, etc...
