Class action lawsuit against CHL for hazing, bullying, harassment, & assault

[BigT112]

This is repulsively disgusting. Hockey culture is trash.

I cannot fathom as a human being doing such barbaric stuff to another human being. That culture needs cancelling.

[Mickey76]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I believe each and every one of these allegations. In fact, I am sure all of it happened and then some. It is disgusting and, unfortunately, has been part of most team sports for a very long time. It must stop and, hopefully, it is being eliminated. Yes to exposing the problem. Yes to advocating against hazing. Yes to making it impossible to practice going forward. Not sure if the lawsuit is the right way of going about it though. Smacks of going after the money first and foremost.

I have to admit I choked on my coffee when I read this as the first or second reply to this. What situation do you think a civil suit is justified? These people need to pay both criminally and civially. And they need to pay organizationally and personally.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by BigT112

This is repulsively disgusting. Hockey culture is trash.

I cannot fathom as a human being doing such barbaric stuff to another human being. That culture needs cancelling.

Nothing about this is “hockey culture”. It’s trash people doing trash things.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by dino7c

100% true, if you know any ex-players or played yourself you will know

I know it’s out there. And it’s absolutely horrible. But I played my whole life, topped out in div 1 Rec, but coached AA. Never happened on any team I played on. Not any type of hazing. I’m lucky for that, and also didn’t reach pro level leagues. Must be more prominent there.

But it certainly isn’t anything to do with “hockey culture”.

[BigT112]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Nothing about this is “hockey culture”. It’s trash people doing trash things.

Sure. We can expand it to sports culture then. But you're kidding yourself if you don't think there is a culture problem and that it contributes to this kind of toxic behavior. There have been enough players in the past talking about these situations that it seems fairly systemic. And that's a culture problem.

[Red_Baron]

I played football in the CJFL and then went on to play university football after that and the hazing was not to the extreme mentioned above but it was still unneccesarily abusive. It seems that there are always a couple of toxic players that get off on that BS behaviour and since it has been seen as a "tradition" coaches and team personnel turn a blind eye to it. The majority of players go along with it in order to be seen as a team player. Those toxic players can make life in a locker room pretty uncomfortable for anyone that didn't fall in line. Often, these over the top alpha types are praised by their coaches for the wrong reasons.

It is a vicious cycle as the ones who were abused the most tend to be the biggest abusers later on.

As for stopping it, outside education or intervention is probably necessary as the abusers tend to have over the top alpha personalities and are either not aware of the damage that they are doing or have a deep seeded need to assert control over others.



I look back now and I keep in touch with many of the players I played junior with but keep in touch with very few from my university days. I just wasn't a good fit for the "culture" in that locker room. I just kept quietly to myself as I watched some of the vets make life a complete hell for some of the rookies and some of this really crossed the line.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by BigT112

Sure. We can expand it to sports culture then. But you're kidding yourself if you don't think there is a culture problem and that it contributes to this kind of toxic behavior. There have been enough players in the past talking about these situations that it seems fairly systemic. And that's a culture problem.

It’s more of an overall bully problem in everything. Kids abuse kids at horrible rates, and when they have some sort of club or seniority they take it to another level. There needs to be more effort put into stopping this at all levels, most importantly schools. Which will help set the foundation for the rest of their activities.

I 100% support the class action suit.

[Boreal]

Part of it is cyclical or becomes cyclical. It was done to them so they do it to others.

I remember reading the book “The Making of Champions” in junior high. It followed players who made it to the 1989 Memorial Cup in Saskatoon (Kevin Kaminski, Donald Audette, Patrice Brisbois, Mike Ricci). Some of this kind of hazing was causally mentioned because it has been normalized in hockey culture for a long time.

Graham James was tarred and feathered like a bad Apple or an isolated problem.

However, you can not operate like he did in an healthy honest open & transparent culture and environment for players.

He knew this and exploited it. The pigs that enabled and normalized this abuse should get what they deserve.

[Irvir]

Originally Posted by UKflames

Just so I understand how this works, is this lawsuit aimed at just the league, so basically anyone who has had anything to do with the league, players as well as staff?? How does this work because surely some of the players bringing the lawsuit could be playing with players that instigated the hazing. Is it against coaches and team owners that knew this was going on but did nothing about it?


Kind of confused what this solves, which could not have been solved through media awareness similar the Aliu or would it have been kept quiet and out of the media (or is that what has been going on (worst kept secret in hockey etc.)

Yes, it is a lawsuit where the parties named are the CHL, WHL, OHL and QMJHL and the 60 individual teams. It would be those legal entities that would be liable for damages; not employees, players etc. However, the actions, or lack of action, by league employees, team employees, players would all make up the factual matrix of the claim.

It solves couple of things. If the allegations are proven, the players would get compensation for damages suffered as a result of the Leagues' and Teams' failure to protect players from this abuse. Also, a civil claim gives aggrieved parties some control over the process. To go to the media, rely on the criminal justice system, or rely on other institutions requires ceding control of the matter. Through a civil claim parties are able to maintain a measure of control and autonomy regarding how they pursue the matter.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Irvir

Out of curiosity, what do you propose is the right way about going about this?

Hazing was universally tolerable to a higher or lower degree. Some of the things that happened in FRONT OF coaching staff were outright criminal. Therefore, correct course of action would be a thorough criminal investigation into ALL of them. It will send the strongest signal to players, management and owners that it's no longer tolerable. At the same time, the message and education must come from the top: this is no longer tolerable at any degree. For players: you will lose your privilege to play professional hockey forever. For staff: you will lose your job in sports forever. For everyone involved: you can go to jail for doing this.

Civil lawsuit deals with liability and compensation. In the end, the players doing all those horrible things are getting off the hook on account of "hey, we were only kids, everyone was doing it, and nobody told us it's bad". Coaching staff may get fired (if they are still working). So, there will be some fine slapped on team owners, of which 1/3 will go to the class action lawyers after all expenses are paid. Who's winning here?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I’m so glad shampoo one the helmet, maybe some Nair or cold/hot rub in a jock is about the extent of the hazing I saw.

Even Nair was frowned upon because it burned.

[Yamer]

Playing minor hockey one year there were a couple of plain bullies on the team that tried to piss on everyone in the shower. I still have no idea why they though it was so god damned funny that they had to do it every game and practice.

While there was some other standard bullying thankfully this kind of disgusting #### never happened in the hockey circles I was ever part of.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Hazing was universally tolerable to a higher or lower degree. Some of the things that happened in FRONT OF coaching staff were outright criminal. Therefore, correct course of action would be a thorough criminal investigation into ALL of them. It will send the strongest signal to players, management and owners that it's no longer tolerable. At the same time, the message and education must come from the top: this is no longer tolerable at any degree. For players: you will lose your privilege to play professional hockey forever. For staff: you will lose your job in sports forever. For everyone involved: you can go to jail for doing this.

Civil lawsuit deals with liability and compensation. In the end, the players doing all those horrible things are getting off the hook on account of "hey, we were only kids, everyone was doing it, and nobody told us it's bad". Coaching staff may get fired (if they are still working). So, there will be some fine slapped on team owners, of which 1/3 will go to the class action lawyers after all expenses are paid. Who's winning here?

Of course criminal action would be preferable, but this civil suit is making claims about specific incidents that all occurred over a decade ago. I'm no lawyer, but I would expect that building an over-ten-year-old criminal case in a high profile climate like Juniour hockey would be exceedingly difficult.

I see this civil suit as an important first step. Even if damages are never awarded, the public attention this stimulates is a success on it's own. I would think that the hope is through this suit primarily to increase awareness, and to lay groundwork for future prosecution in more recent—and likely winnable—criminal cases.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Irvir]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Hazing was universally tolerable to a higher or lower degree. Some of the things that happened in FRONT OF coaching staff were outright criminal. Therefore, correct course of action would be a thorough criminal investigation into ALL of them. It will send the strongest signal to players, management and owners that it's no longer tolerable. At the same time, the message and education must come from the top: this is no longer tolerable at any degree. For players: you will lose your privilege to play professional hockey forever. For staff: you will lose your job in sports forever. For everyone involved: you can go to jail for doing this.

Civil lawsuit deals with liability and compensation. In the end, the players doing all those horrible things are getting off the hook on account of "hey, we were only kids, everyone was doing it, and nobody told us it's bad". Coaching staff may get fired (if they are still working). So, there will be some fine slapped on team owners, of which 1/3 will go to the class action lawyers after all expenses are paid. Who's winning here?

I don't think anyone is arguing that the criminal system doesn't have a role to play, but one does not preclude the other and there are fundamental differences between criminal and civil proceedings. One of the main differences is that the victims lack a say in whether criminal charges are brought against an accused. Charges are brought by the state and pursued by the state, at the discretion of the state. On the other hand civil claims allow the victims to maintain control of the proceeding. There is also a difference in the burden of proof, between the two types of proceedings; balance of probabilities or civil and and beyond a reasonable doubt for criminal, which is an additional reason the civil route would be more attractive in this situation.

You're right that civil lawsuits deal with compensation, which is about redress to the victim for harm caused or making victims whole again. Criminal law on the other hand is centred around harm caused to society. The point being, that they are aimed at achieving different ends, both of which are worthy and legitimate in their own right.

[bagofpucks]

This one hits home for me too. I played and coached at high levels of minor hockey and Junior. I will say, as a coach I never saw any of the hazing stuff, but in my playing days it was a lot more present. Most of the stuff I saw was not over the legality line of things, but there was definitely some things that were close and none of it has a place in sport or society. As a “veteran” on the teams I even thought getting the rookies to do more than their share as far as bringing in things from the bus or cleaning the dressing room was kind of stupid and went against all team mantras.

The problem I see is even if I had seen something really bad during my playing days I honestly can’t say I would have had the guts to stand up for myself or teammates. The good thing is that when I was coaching I did feel that the teams I worked with 100% would have supported anyone standing up against this stuff. So, maybe we have made some tiny steps forward? I really do hope this brings this to light for all players, coaches and managers and completely removes it from not just hockey, but all sports.

[MoneyGuy]

I remember the good old days when we were froshed in high school by having to push a penny down a hallway with our noses.

[Derek Sutton]

Physical and sexual abuse a side. It is interesting where to draw the line between abuse, bullying, and intimidation and motivation, teaching and accountability. So much of this lies within the dr swing room, player group and parents.

There's an arrogance many high level coaches carry themselves with, many see themselves as untouchable, big fish in a small pond. And so many parents buy into this, but especially high levels of minor hockey. Down in Lethbidge there was nearly a pee wee boycot back in 2014(?) when minor hockey wouldn't let Mike Dyck have his pick of AA Pee Wee kids, (it had been and still is two teams drafted evenly). The parents were going to all register their kids in a small town system and Mike would go out there and coach, that was one stupid idea, and there were worse ones. Hockey parents are so blinded by winning and getting their kids to the NHL, they will believe nearly anything and accept nearly anything.

Mentally twisting (abusing?) kids is a tactic that coaches have used for ever. Calling out kids, shaming kids, what is deemed acceptable and what is abuse? And are kids and parents willing to accept these tactics in order to win, or in hopes of players progressing to the next level? Some openly do, many quietly do and other step forward with complaints, those are the kids who are cut the next year.

[bigtmac19]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

This story hitting close to home. Living in Lethbridge and having family who played a lot of hockey for Mike over the years, know him personally. The thing with Mike was that he could get a lot out of a little with a hockey team. He is old an school progressive coach. Recently, about 6 months ago there were claims of abuse against the Sutters and Red Deer Rebels organization, we figured it was only a matter of time before Mikes name was brought up.

Happy that there’s not any claims of sexual abuse against him or the Hurricanes organization.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalne...ainst-chl/amp/

Interesting how you think the claims against him are not that bad because it doesn’t involve sexual abuse? Maybe those issues just haven’t been revealed yet? Calling him a progressive coach doesn’t really fit with this narrative? Poor choice of words in my opinion.

[UKflames]

Originally Posted by Irvir

Yes, it is a lawsuit where the parties named are the CHL, WHL, OHL and QMJHL and the 60 individual teams. It would be those legal entities that would be liable for damages; not employees, players etc. However, the actions, or lack of action, by league employees, team employees, players would all make up the factual matrix of the claim.

It solves couple of things. If the allegations are proven, the players would get compensation for damages suffered as a result of the Leagues' and Teams' failure to protect players from this abuse. Also, a civil claim gives aggrieved parties some control over the process. To go to the media, rely on the criminal justice system, or rely on other institutions requires ceding control of the matter. Through a civil claim parties are able to maintain a measure of control and autonomy regarding how they pursue the matter.

Thank you for trying to clear up my confusion but I do wish instead of just going after the leagues, they named pzrticulzr player or team staff. That way people doing this will learn that they cannot hide behind the team or league, you pull this ##### your names going out there. Maybe itvwill, we shall see.

[UKflames]

Originally Posted by Irvir

Yes, it is a lawsuit where the parties named are the CHL, WHL, OHL and QMJHL and the 60 individual teams. It would be those legal entities that would be liable for damages; not employees, players etc. However, the actions, or lack of action, by league employees, team employees, players would all make up the factual matrix of the claim.

It solves couple of things. If the allegations are proven, the players would get compensation for damages suffered as a result of the Leagues' and Teams' failure to protect players from this abuse. Also, a civil claim gives aggrieved parties some control over the process. To go to the media, rely on the criminal justice system, or rely on other institutions requires ceding control of the matter. Through a civil claim parties are able to maintain a measure of control and autonomy regarding how they pursue the matter.

Thank you for trying to clear up my confusion but I do wish instead of just going after the leagues, they named particular players or team staff. That way people doing this will learn that they cannot hide behind the team or league, you pull this ##### your names going out there. Maybe it will, we shall see.