Calgary Flames All Time Roster - Starting Goaltender

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Never understood the dislike for Mike Vernon in this city. He came from a time of inflated goals against average and low save percentages, but got it done in two playoff drives which something no other goaltender in team history can say.

A couple things - one is his rep for being a dick. The other is my visions of series ending pucks floating over him for the few years after the cup.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A couple things - one is his rep for being a dick. The other is my visions of series ending pucks floating over him for the few years after the cup.

This. 100%.


I remember that glove save vs VCR.

But on a team with 5 HOF players it's not like he carried them to the promised land (like in '86). In no order - LAK puck floating over him as he waves at it, Gretzky & Esa Tikannen beating him high with almost identical shots, 1 on 1 with Bure (it seemed like 3 games in a row) and getting beat each time.

I don't remember Vernon ever winning (stealing) a game or a series on his own (maybe '86?). I do remember that if Kipper lost a game the next one he most likely got a shutout.

Vernon was responsible for a franchise turnaround with his '86 run. He may have been a major reason why they won in '89. I my mind he is a major reason why they didn't win at least 2 more.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Never understood the dislike for Mike Vernon in this city. He came from a time of inflated goals against average and low save percentages, but got it done in two playoff drives which something no other goaltender in team history can say.

Huge part of the cup win.

But Kiprusoff took an average team to within a win of the cup, held the modern day goals against average mark for a spell, won a vezina and started 70 games a year.

Could be the best player in Flames history.

Vernon had a habit of letting in a bad goal at the wrong time during a game. Fans would be hard on him for that. So hard that his parents stopped going to games, first his mom and then his dad.

Other than that it was a toss up between Vernon and Kipper for me.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A couple things - one is his rep for being a dick. The other is my visions of series ending pucks floating over him for the few years after the cup.

What does that have to do with his on ice performance?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by sleepingmoose

I voted for Kipper - I definitely don't dislike Mike Vernon, but in terms of pure talent in the position compared to contemporaries, Kipper is really untouchable. Vernon helped tip great teams over the top, but Kipper really helped some so-so teams get a lot further than they deserved to go.

That's a myth. Aside from the 2004 run, Flames didn't win a single series with Kipper. And those were loaded, spending - to-the-cap teams. Kipper's playoff record is 3 series wins to 5 series loses. Frankly, 2004 was an outlier for him. Alas, 1989 was not an outlier for Vernon, as proven by his other cup and finals runs.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Kiprusoff is the greatest goalie in Flames history, without question.

This isn't to diminish Vernon's contributions in any way, but I don't know if you can even argue that his individual contributions were greater than Kiprusoff's even despite the results. Vernon played on a team that was dominant both offensively and defensively, Kiprusoff didn't have anywhere close to that, but their accolades are separated by a single game's result.

For that reason, to me, Kiprusoff stands clear above. As important as even Iginla during the same time was to this franchise, without Kiprusoff, I don't know if 2004 happens, and I don't even know if we're still in Calgary.

Vernon has

Cup win 1989
Cup finals 1986
Won a round 1988

Kipper has
Cup finals 2004

Didn't win another playoff round after that.

That's much bigger gap than single game result..

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Miikka Kiprusoff is one of the top 3 most talented players to ever play for the Calgary Flames. Maybe the most talented.

Kipper didn't win a single playoff series in his whole career, except for his stunning 2004 run. Which was clearly tremendous, but just as clearly was an outlier. He was well-rested, as he had played only 39 regular season games that season. He had a bit of Kawhi Leonard effect that playoffs. On the other hand, as a true #1 goalie, who plays 60+ games, he never got past first round.

Vernon, in his career, had made it to finals 4 times and won 2 (1989 with Calgary and 1997 with Detroit). Vernon overall was far better bet to win you a series.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Vernon has

Cup win 1989
Cup finals 1986
Won a round 1988

Kipper has
Cup finals 2004

Didn't win another playoff round after that.

That's much bigger gap than single game result..

Winning a round is not an accolade, the Stanley Cup is. And the difference between them in that regard is the outcome of a single game.

And if we're talking about individual accolades, Kiprusoff won the Vezina and the Jennings while with the Flames. Vernon didn't win any individual accolades for his performance as a Flame.

And if you want to look at the individual difference they made on the team, Kiprusoff won the Molson Cup four times. Vernon won it once.

[FlamesAddiction]

It's a travesty that the Flames of the late 80s and early 90s didn't win more Cups. Those teams were deep and stacked.

Kiprusoff never had a stacked team and was better than any Flames goalie during his peak years. He had a steep drop off near the end though.

Vernon was really good when he peaked and held his own for a long time, but he was never a game stealer the way Kiprusoff was.

[FireGilbert]

I was a big fan a Vernon and still believe to this day it was a huge mistake to trade him but this is Kipper all the way. For a time he was the best goalie in the world and his 05/06 Vezina and Jennings winning season is probably the best single season by any Flame ever.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Kipper didn't win a single playoff series in his whole career, except for his stunning 2004 run. Which was clearly tremendous, but just as clearly was an outlier. He was well-rested, as he had played only 39 regular season games that season. He had a bit of Kawhi Leonard effect that playoffs. On the other hand, as a true #1 goalie, who plays 60+ games, he never got past first round.

Vernon, in his career, had made it to finals 4 times and won 2 (1989 with Calgary and 1997 with Detroit). Vernon overall was far better bet to win you a series.

2006 Vezina Trophy.

No other Flames goaltender was considered the best in the game, especially when leading teams no where near the quality of rosters as the 1989 Flames and 1997 Red Wings. Give Kiprusoff those teams and I guarantee he wins just as many rounds.

[N-E-B]

Kipper was one of the best goalies I’ve ever seen in the NHL period. I think his decline towards the end had more to do with his desire to play and less to do with his talent actually falling off.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Kipper was one of the best goalies I’ve ever seen in the NHL period. I think his decline towards the end had more to do with his desire to play and less to do with his talent actually falling off.

While it is true that Kiper on his peak was the best goalie in the game, it has a lot to do with long rest. He effectively had two great campaigns :

2004 playoffs - after playing merely 38 games in the regular season

2006 regular season - after 2004/05 lockout season, when he played 52 fairly low-intense games in Sweden. Ironically, his team lost in first round during the lockout season as well.


Kipper was nowhere near NHL best goalie when he had regular workload. He required prolonged periods of rest to put amazing campaigns,which was not sustainable. Was it because of his smoking or not, is anyone's guess. Nonetheless he wasn't really all that valuable year in and year out.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Yamer

2006 Vezina Trophy.

No other Flames goaltender was considered the best in the game, especially when leading teams no where near the quality of rosters as the 1989 Flames and 1997 Red Wings. Give Kiprusoff those teams and I guarantee he wins just as many rounds.

While Kipper never had teams as stacked, as some of Vernon 's teams, he was on teams that were expected to go deep or at least win a round, and they never did. Aside from 2004, Flames tend to underachieve or, at least, never overachieve with Kipper. That goes not only for playoffs, but for regular seasons as well, with 2006 season may be the only exception, and even that is debatable. His reputation of a goalie who makes his team overachieve is based solely on 2004 playoffs. It was an outlier.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Pointman

While it is true that Kiper on his peak was the best goalie in the game, it has a lot to do with long rest. He effectively had two great campaigns :

2004 playoffs - after playing merely 38 games in the regular season

2006 regular season - after 2004/05 lockout season, when he played 52 fairly low-intense games in Sweden. Ironically, his team lost in first round during the lockout season as well.


Kipper was nowhere near NHL best goalie when he had regular workload. He required prolonged periods of rest to put amazing campaigns. Was it because of his smoking or not, is anyone's guess. Nonetheless he wasn't really all that valuable year in and year out.

His save percentages say otherwise. Plus he didn't have an allstar team in front of him like Vernon did.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Winning a round is not an accolade, the Stanley Cup is. And the difference between them in that regard is the outcome of a single game.

Vernon won the cup
Kipper was one game away from winning the cup
Vernon was three games away from winning another cup

You make it sound as Kipper nearly matched playoff success of Vernon. But he did not. Sure, 1989 team was stacked. But was 1986 team really stacked against the Oilers?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Vernon won the cup
Kipper was one game away from winning the cup
Vernon was three games away from winning another cup

You make it sound as Kipper nearly matched playoff success of Vernon. But he did not. Sure, 1989 team was stacked. But was 1986 team really stacked against the Oilers?

No. I was simply stating that Kipper didn't have an all star lineup in front of him and did extremely well with what he had. Look at the lack of offence compared to what Vernon had in front of him. On many a night Kipper was the reason we won games.

Vernon had the 88- 89 - 90 - 91 lineups. Put Kipper in those years and he would have probably done the same if not better than Vernon. All those teams could have won Cups.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Dion

His save percentages say otherwise. Plus he didn't have an allstar team in front of him like Vernon did.

Kipper ranks by saving percentage, among goalies with at least 40 games

2006/07 - 9th
2007/08 - 25th
2008/09 - 25th
2009/10 - 9th
2010/11 - 24th
2011/12 - 7th
2012/19 - 10th, but he only played 24 games

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Dion

No. I was simply stating that Kipper didn't have an all star lineup in front of him and did extremely well with what he had. Look at the lack of offence compared to what Vernon had in front of him. On many a night Kipper was the reason we won games.

Vernon had the 88- 89 - 90 - 91 lineups. Put Kipper in those years and he would have probably done the same if not better than Vernon. All those teams could have won Cups.

He wouldn't. He needed long rest to be elite. On regular rest he was not any better than Vernon. Kipper's post-lockout teams, albeit less stacked than Vernon's, never really played to their potential either.

[calgaryred]

Kipper is the better goaltender but besides 2004 I found him to be a let down in the playoffs especially against the Sharks in 2008 that game 4 loss was the difference. Sharks were beatable that series.

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