Museum for Creationists

[Frank the Tank]

Originally posted by Bring_Back_Shantz@Oct 19 2005, 01:58 PM
Why not?

Theology and Philosophy can go hand in hand when discussing questions of morality and many other things, and Logic is one of the basic foundations of Philosophy.

Logic has nothing to do with Theology.

[Dan]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Oct 19 2005, 07:53 AM
Actually, if we thought about it, it's probable that the overwhelming majority of human beings on Earth do not believe in evolution and likely instead believe in some sort of spiritual beginning.

Cowperson

It's surprisingly high in Canada too
There was a poll that found less than 50% of people across the country accept the theory of evolution, with Ontario being the lowest province at something like 38%
I'll never find the poll so I could be lying for all you know, but it's some more good anti-Ontario ammo

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Dan@Oct 20 2005, 08:43 AM
It's surprisingly high in Canada too
There was a poll that found less than 50% of people across the country accept the theory of evolution, with Ontario being the lowest province at something like 38%
I'll never find the poll so I could be lying for all you know, but it's some more good anti-Ontario ammo

What Im finding is that although people suggest they are religious...or Christian...most have no clue what that means beyond going to heaven.
It seems people use whatever clause(s) they desire out of the bible or textbook they choose to suit themselves. Much like Clarkey mentioned above.." How many Christians actually follow the literal 6 day creationism belief though? I think it is more of a fringe thing, but it gets a lot of attention due to it's lunacy.
"

Where is the line in regards to religious lunacy? Is it the mere thought of a belief in a ghost or a super being who one day snapped his fingers and voila...we have earth and man/woman? Reality is that IF you consider yourself a true Christian, then you should believe in its manifesto...the Bible and its teachings. So all of the BS we read about...Adam and Eve, the Ark etc etc etc...is part of that belief system. What kind of a Christian are you if you can select portions to suit yourself? Let me guess...a HYPOCRITICAL Christian!

[Clarkey]

Is it a matter of picking and choosing, or is it that people interpret the bible/christianity different?

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Clarkey@Oct 20 2005, 11:59 AM
Is it a matter of picking and choosing, or is it that people interpret the bible/christianity different?

Thats the point. There are literally 100s or 1000s of churches out there with their own literal interpretation of the bible. Same book...yet none of them seem to be able to agree to what it says. Whether thats picking and choosing or interpretation is for these people to decide.
If it is so ambiguous then why bother? Why cant they just live by this dogma..

1. That we can live full, meaningful lives, without religious doctrines, by relying on our capacities for rational thought, honesty, responsibility, fairness, justice, cooperation, and each other.

2. That we use democratic principles, reason, and scientific inquiry to find realistic solutions to problems.

3. That we foster good ethics, virtues and critical thinking in our children to help them grow to be decent and proactive members of society.

4. That we look after the Earth for future generations by supporting scientific breakthroughs in medicine and technology and by not inflicting needless suffering on other species.

5. That separation of religion and state is upheld in all levels of government to ensure equality and fairness for all.

[Clarkey]

Originally posted by Cheese@Oct 20 2005, 04:10 PM
Thats the point. There are literally 100s or 1000s of churches out there with their own literal interpretation of the bible. Same book...yet none of them seem to be able to agree to what it says. Whether thats picking and choosing or interpretation is for these people to decide.
If it is so ambiguous then why bother? Why cant they just live by this dogma..

1. That we can live full, meaningful lives, without religious doctrines, by relying on our capacities for rational thought, honesty, responsibility, fairness, justice, cooperation, and each other.

2. That we use democratic principles, reason, and scientific inquiry to find realistic solutions to problems.

3. That we foster good ethics, virtues and critical thinking in our children to help them grow to be decent and proactive members of society.

4. That we look after the Earth for future generations by supporting scientific breakthroughs in medicine and technology and by not inflicting needless suffering on other species.

5. That separation of religion and state is upheld in all levels of government to ensure equality and fairness for all.

Ahh isn't that cute, let's all sing kumbaya.

Life is about differing beliefs and opinions son. There are very few absolutes in life.

You suggest things like teaching children 'good' ethics, who's 'good' ethics do you suggest using? Your own?

There are very few absolutes in science or any academic discipline.

You think that all those who believe in God or the supernatural, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc. whatever, are moronic, simple-minded, ignorant and uneducated. This is a very arrogant attitude. And the way you so vehemently argue against what these people believe comes across as you trying to convert others to your beliefs, something you are critical of others for doing.

Just be careful, thinking you have everything figured out is a sure sign of how little you actually know. Labelling entire groups of people as ignorant is not good.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Clarkey@Oct 20 2005, 02:21 PM
Ahh isn't that cute, let's all sing kumbaya.

Life is about differing beliefs and opinions son. There are very few absolutes in life.

You suggest things like teaching children 'good' ethics, who's 'good' ethics do you suggest using? Your own?

There are very few absolutes in science or any academic discipline.

You think that all those who believe in God or the supernatural, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc. whatever, are moronic, simple-minded, ignorant and uneducated. This is a very arrogant attitude. And the way you so vehemently argue against what these people believe comes across as you trying to convert others to your beliefs, something you are critical of others for doing.

Just be careful, thinking you have everything figured out is a sure sign of how little you actually know. Labelling entire groups of people as ignorant is not good.

Did you just call me son? Didnt you just label me? And if you label me that way arent you labelling the millions who believe what I do? Does that make you ignorant?
Have I said they are ignorant people? Or did I say that believing in religion is ignorant?
I think religious people hold hands and sing Kumbaya, why should I? Feel free to put the blinders on and sing out loud, son.
Maybe the fact that borders and religions keep us different, create the issues? What if we didnt have the borders and religions to keep us that way? What if we could simply be people of the world? Would that be the wrong way to think? Does the bible syuggest that we should all remain different?
I think Ill take the absolutes in science ANY day as opposed to the infighting and bickering that religion creates, worldwide!

[Clarkey]

'People of the World'

Once again, cute, but I have no idea what you are trying to say. Are you talking about globalization, uniting currency??

Religion and science are not mutually exclusive, many great scientists hold religious beliefs.

It's easy to blame the problems of the world on religion, politics, borders, etc. The problem is that in doing so you abdicate all human responsibility and instead place the blame on some abstract concept. Why not point the cause of wars to mans greed, lust for power, and desire to control the minds of others?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Cheese@Oct 20 2005, 08:38 AM
Reality is that IF you consider yourself a true Christian, then you should believe in its manifesto...the Bible and its teachings. So all of the BS we read about...Adam and Eve, the Ark etc etc etc...is part of that belief system.

The Bible is literature and it can be interpreted many different ways. I don't know what the reasons are but I'm sure a non-literalist can give a pretty good reason as to why they don't take it literally.

Who are us non-Christians to say that they must take every word of it literally?

[troutman]

The Humanist Manifesto:

http://www.americanhumanist.org/3/Hu...spirations.php

1. Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis.

2. Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change.

3. Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience.

3. Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals.

4. Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships.

5. Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 20 2005, 02:51 PM
The Bible is literature and it can be interpreted many different ways. I don't know what the reasons are but I'm sure a non-literalist can give a pretty good reason as to why they don't take it literally.

Who are us non-Christians to say that they must take every word of it literally?

Im just speaking as the Pope would.....he likes to keep things in the dark ages.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally posted by Cheese@Oct 20 2005, 12:32 PM
Did you just call me son? Didnt you just label me? And if you label me that way arent you labelling the millions who believe what I do? Does that make you ignorant?
Have I said they are ignorant people? Or did I say that believing in religion is ignorant?
I think religious people hold hands and sing Kumbaya, why should I? Feel free to put the blinders on and sing out loud, son.
Maybe the fact that borders and religions keep us different, create the issues? What if we didnt have the borders and religions to keep us that way? What if we could simply be people of the world? Would that be the wrong way to think? Does the bible syuggest that we should all remain different?
I think Ill take the absolutes in science ANY day as opposed to the infighting and bickering that religion creates, worldwide!

Allright you totally missed the point of his post, or chose to ignore it. Good job taking offence to him calling you son to distract from the fact that you totally ignored the question of who decides what "Good" Morals to teach children.

Who decides if we can eat pork? Who decides if we can marry more than one woman? That was the point of his post, is that there are a lot of differences between belief systems, maybe they come from religion, maybe they are the cause of it, that's a whole other chicken and egg debate right there.

But simply saying that you'll take science over the bickering that religion causes is completely missing the point.

[ernie]

-Dougal's list from Father Ted



You know the whole God created the world thing and how he sent his son to Earth to save us and the whole heaven and hell thing? That's the part I have trouble with.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally posted by Cheese@Oct 20 2005, 01:05 PM
Im just speaking as the Pope would.....he likes to keep things in the dark ages.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You're equating the Pope (Catholic) with born again evangelical protestant types. Just because they both use the same book doesn't mean they are the same thing.


Saying the Pope wants everyone to interperate the Bible literally is just ignorant, The Catholic church has acknowledged that the creation story is metaphoric and doesn't preclude evolution.

Are you Catholic? Did you go to Catholic school? Are you at all familliar with how the church works beyond what you've read in Angels and Demons and the Da Vinci Code? I'm guessing the answer to all three is NO.

[Frank the Tank]

Originally posted by Bring_Back_Shantz@Oct 20 2005, 02:14 PM
Are you Catholic? Did you go to Catholic school? Are you at all familliar with how the church works beyond what you've read in Angels and Demons and the Da Vinci Code? I'm guessing the answer to all three is NO.

Thats pretty rude. Like his beliefs or not, Cheese is one of the most intelligent people on this board. You don't have to belittle him with snide comments like that.

[Clarkey]

Originally posted by Cheese@Oct 20 2005, 07:05 PM
Im just speaking as the Pope would.....he likes to keep things in the dark ages.

I'm pretty sure that Roman Catholicism accepts the science of evolution as opposed to the literal creationist view.

So while the RC church may or may not be 'stuck in the dark ages' in other areas, this is not one of them.

[Frank the Tank]

Originally posted by Clarkey@Oct 20 2005, 02:18 PM
I'm pretty sure that Roman Catholicism accepts the science of evolution as opposed to the literal creationist view.

So while the RC church may or may not be 'stuck in the dark ages' in other areas, this is not one of them.

Right. They do accept parts of evolution, but god forbid (haha) they'd sanction the use of condoms to prevent AIDS.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Bring_Back_Shantz@Oct 20 2005, 03:14 PM
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You're equating the Pope (Catholic) with born again evangelical protestant types. Just because they both use the same book doesn't mean they are the same thing.


Saying the Pope wants everyone to interperate the Bible literally is just ignorant, The Catholic church has acknowledged that the creation story is metaphoric and doesn't preclude evolution.

Are you Catholic? Did you go to Catholic school? Are you at all familliar with how the church works beyond what you've read in Angels and Demons and the Da Vinci Code? I'm guessing the answer to all three is NO.

And you? Are you a Priest? Have you spent more than 5 minutes reading your bible?
Are you suggesting that the Catholics are a forward thinking group that has managed to move with the times? Perhaps the millions of Catholics who suffer from AIDs in Africa might differ?
I was raised Roman Catholic, Joined the Morman temple and lived with a Jehovah. I have studied religion...religiously. I dropped all religion at about age 24ish when it dawned on me that all of them were hypocrites, including the evangelical protestant types. Why?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally posted by Cheese@Oct 20 2005, 01:22 PM
And you? Are you a Priest? Have you spent more than 5 minutes reading your bible?
Are you suggesting that the Catholics are a forward thinking group that has managed to move with the times? Perhaps the millions of Catholics who suffer from AIDs in Africa might differ?
I was raised Roman Catholic, Joined the Morman temple and lived with a Jehovah. I have studied religion...religiously. I dropped all religion at about age 24ish when it dawned on me that all of them were hypocrites, including the evangelical protestant types. Why?

I'll never argue with you that some of what the church says is a little out of wack with reality (birth control vs AIDS for one), but that is a moral matter, this is a scientific debate, and in that context you implied that the Catholic Churc (the Pope in particluar) supports the idea of a literal interpretation of the entire bible, including the creation story, and that is just plain FALSE.

Argue the morality of condemming birthcontrol as a means of disesase prevention all you want, chances are I'll be on your side for most of that one, but don't go making completly FALSE statements to support your own dislike for the Catholic Church and religion in general.

[Cheese]

Polybius writes:

"Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions."