[Game Takes] Flames 7 Vancouver 4

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Statistically that's not actually true.

Bennett has created more shot attempts, scoring chances and high danger chances per 60 minutes than Dube has through two games.

Dube has six more minutes of ice time so maybe you notice him more, but he's not doing more with his time than Bennett has.

Bennett is actually 6th in forwards in creating chances with his limited ice time.

Dube and Ryan are at the back of the bus on most categories.

Maybe in terms of volume, I'm not going to discount the numbers, but in my mind I have noticed dube a lot more in terms of odd man rushes, breakaways and transitions through the neutral zone.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Maybe in terms of volume, I'm not going to discount the numbers, but in my mind I have noticed dube a lot more in terms of odd man rushes, breakaways and transitions through the neutral zone.

Isn't volume the point?

You had Bennett bobbling it every time he got it and Dube generating chances.

The truth is Dube is bottom two on the team in generating anything through two games and Bennett is top five/six in all three categories.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Isn't volume the point?

You had Bennett bobbling it every time he got it and Dube generating chances.

The truth is Dube is bottom two on the team in generating anything through two games and Bennett is top five/six in all three categories.

Well I'm sure you understand not every chance is created equally.

Can you explain some of the criteria you're using for these stats?

I am honestly shocked by those numbers for Bennett. I wouldn't have said dube is anywhere near the top, but he definitely looked better than Bennett in mind in sheer numbers of significant pucks on net. So much so I might even go back and watch his minutes again.

Those numbers are shocking.

[calgarywinning]

Bennett looked dangerous last night. Had one prime opportunity with an open net and couldn't finish. Just keep hoping he hits that point where he gets rewarded for his hard work.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Well I'm sure you understand not every chance is created equally.

Can you explain some of the criteria you're using for these stats?

I am honestly shocked by those numbers for Bennett. I wouldn't have said dube is anywhere near the top, but he definitely looked better than Bennett in mind in sheer numbers of significant pucks on net. So much so I might even go back and watch his minutes again.

Those numbers are shocking.

I don't have criteria, that's the point. Not spinning anything.

A shot attempt is any shot taken whether it is saved, shot wide, scores or is blocked.

A scoring chance is any shot attempt taken within home plate.

A high danger chance is a scoring chance that meets a criteria of how the shot occurred, have never seen it fully explained but it's a way of hashing the bigger scoring chance totals down to a more dangerous chance based on passing etc. These numbers are usually 20% of scoring chances.

All of these stats are a count for and against if you're on the ice, you don't have to be on the actually shooting it.

Bennett is doing more of all of these than half of the team's forwards when you adjust for his ice time through two games. He was exactly the same last year on the season as well ... 5th or 6th on the team as a forward.

Not all chances are equal for sure, but I think the explanation above points to how this has been handled, and it's certainly to the point that one player can't trump the system to make themselves look better than they are on a night in and night out basis.

Bennett is generating a lot in the last year and two games. He hasn't been rewarded yet.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I don’t know the various free agent rules well but didnt he need to get into about 20 more games? That’s more than a few

Yes, he required a total of 80 NHL games played by the end of last season to remain an RFA. He had 59.

[bigrangy]

Yeah to my eye Dube has been confident and explosive carrying the puck in transition but really hasn't been able to get the puck to any dangerous areas. He's been very perimeter so far.



It will improve but I think he's still thinking he and his teammates can score from distance like he could in junior.


Bennett hasn't exactly blown the doors off but he has been involved in more scoring chances.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

Bennett looked dangerous last night. Had one prime opportunity with an open net and couldn't finish. Just keep hoping he hits that point where he gets rewarded for his hard work.

This has been kind of the story of Bennett’s NHL career.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Yeah to my eye Dube has been confident and explosive carrying the puck in transition but really hasn't been able to get the puck to any dangerous areas. He's been very perimeter so far.



It will improve but I think he's still thinking he and his teammates can score from distance like he could in junior.


Bennett hasn't exactly blown the doors off but he has been involved in more scoring chances.

I think it’s those qualities in Dube that would make him work well with Bennett and Jankowski. Have Dube be more the pick carrier and attack the zone, allowing Bennett to follow up with some board strength and Jankowski out front. Bennett gets himself in trouble carrying the puck and Dube’s speed Can really back defenders up and open room.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by sempuki

I get that Pettersson successfully head faked everyone on the ice, but Prout *has* to be stronger on the stick with Horvat on the doorstep. That's the most dangerous guy on the ice, and that's who scored.

I get that Ryan is in the second power play to win faceoffs, but other than that he just doesn't belong. The second unit needs a lot of work

It looked to me like Prout even had his stick and then let the guy loose.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It looked to me like Prout even had his stick and then let the guy loose.

Prout had him, then adjusted his view as Hanifin moved to block his sight line so Prout couldn’t see where the puck was, and in that one second of adjusting the pass came over. All of Hanifin moving, Prout adjusting and the pass being made had to be within 1-2 seconds for the play to happen as it did.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by belsarius

I think it’s those qualities in Dube that would make him work well with Bennett and Jankowski. Have Dube be more the pick carrier and attack the zone, allowing Bennett to follow up with some board strength and Jankowski out front. Bennett gets himself in trouble carrying the puck and Dube’s speed Can really back defenders up and open room.

You see how tough this can be though

You have a top five that is given, and the fact that there is no way you want Neal out of your top nine.

Lindholm isn't immune to moving but he seems to be a fit and is off to a good start.

So really it's

LW
Bennett
Dube
Frolik

C
Ryan
Jankowski

RW
Neal
Frolik
Czarnik

and out of those options you need a RW in the top six, and three guys designated to only play 7-9 minutes a night on the fourth line.

Tough.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't have criteria, that's the point. Not spinning anything.

A shot attempt is any shot taken whether it is saved, shot wide, scores or is blocked.

A scoring chance is any shot attempt taken within home plate.

A high danger chance is a scoring chance that meets a criteria of how the shot occurred, have never seen it fully explained but it's a way of hashing the bigger scoring chance totals down to a more dangerous chance based on passing etc. These numbers are usually 20% of scoring chances.

All of these stats are a count for and against if you're on the ice, you don't have to be on the actually shooting it.

Bennett is doing more of all of these than half of the team's forwards when you adjust for his ice time through two games. He was exactly the same last year on the season as well ... 5th or 6th on the team as a forward.

Not all chances are equal for sure, but I think the explanation above points to how this has been handled, and it's certainly to the point that one player can't trump the system to make themselves look better than they are on a night in and night out basis.

Bennett is generating a lot in the last year and two games. He hasn't been rewarded yet.

I'm not suggesting you're spinning, sorry if that's how it came across, I just don't fully understand what the criteria is for judging these scoring chances, and whether if we compare them to video, do we see other things a coach might hone in on.

Just had a look through the first period and maybe I wasn't giving bennett his due in that game as I came in late in the 1st period, but for the sake of discussion let's look at Dube and Bennett in back to back shifts:

https://streamable.com/tdrvh

How do you score that in terms of the advanced stats, and how do you score it in terms of play as a coach?

(what a pass by Janko)

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You see how tough this can be though

You have a top five that is given, and the fact that there is no way you want Neal out of your top nine.

Lindholm isn't immune to moving but he seems to be a fit and is off to a good start.

So really it's

LW
Bennett
Dube
Frolik

C
Ryan
Jankowski

RW
Neal
Frolik
Czarnik

and out of those options you need a RW in the top six, and three guys designated to only play 7-9 minutes a night on the fourth line.

Tough.

Totally agree, and while I’d like Bennett/Jank to have more ice time I think getting these guys together takes away time from Dube in favour of Frolik which I don’t think is fair to him. I would love to see Neal get a shot at the second line. Czarnik didn’t look bad but I don’t know how much he added.

I think if it takes more than a couple games for that third line to gel I could see some changes happening with Peters, and I think Dube with the “fourth line” could make is so much more dynamic and dangerous.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm not suggesting you're spinning, sorry if that's how it came across, I just don't fully understand what the criteria is for judging these scoring chances, and whether if we compare them to video, do we see other things a coach might hone in on.

Just had a look through the first period and maybe I wasn't giving bennett his due in that game as I came in late in the 1st period, but for the sake of discussion let's look at Dube and Bennett in back to back shifts:

https://streamable.com/tdrvh

How do you score that in terms of the advanced stats, and how do you score it in terms of play as a coach?

(what a pass by Janko)

I see that segment of video as ...

Dube
1-0 CF
0-0 SCF
0-0 HDCF

Bennett (could be the same but for the sake of argument)
1-0 CF
1-0 SCF
1-0 HDCF

And I honestly like Dube's game don't get me wrong. I think he has more confidence with the puck than Bennett does at this point. But Bennett is creating when he's on the ice. Started last year and it's continued despite limited ice time.

This usually leads to a breakthrough, but with time piling on I honestly can't say for sure that it will for Bennett.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Totally agree, and while I’d like Bennett/Jank to have more ice time I think getting these guys together takes away time from Dube in favour of Frolik which I don’t think is fair to him. I would love to see Neal get a shot at the second line. Czarnik didn’t look bad but I don’t know how much he added.

I think if it takes more than a couple games for that third line to gel I could see some changes happening with Peters, and I think Dube with the “fourth line” could make is so much more dynamic and dangerous.

Possession stats are tough, you never know how much it's one guy vs the other two guys on a line.

But that second line dominated last night, they were the best line on the ice but couldn't finish. Backlund should have had two or three in the second period alone.

Given that I don't think they break that up.

Really it comes down to what LW and what C are best for Neal right now. That has to be the focus.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Possession stats are tough, you never know how much it's one guy vs the other two guys on a line.

But that second line dominated last night, they were the best line on the ice but couldn't finish. Backlund should have had two or three in the second period alone.

Given that I don't think they break that up.

Really it comes down to what LW and what C are best for Neal right now. That has to be the focus.

I would try switching ryan and jankowski to see what happens.

Might be a bit of a tire fire defensively, but Janko likes making pretty plays.

[pokerNhockey]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Well I'm sure you understand not every chance is created equally.

Can you explain some of the criteria you're using for these stats?

I am honestly shocked by those numbers for Bennett. I wouldn't have said dube is anywhere near the top, but he definitely looked better than Bennett in mind in sheer numbers of significant pucks on net. So much so I might even go back and watch his minutes again.

Those numbers are shocking.

Dube played 12:51 last night, Bennett played 7:01

That means he would have to be 1.8x as productive with his ice to have the same "sheer numbers". The reason you think you saw him do more is he had almost twice the ice time, and memory doesn't account for the time on ice difference.

[Mike F]

Nm