48 hour buyout window

[Toonage]

So many things point to a buyout but who knows.

He can't sit in the pressbox all year as an assistant captain yet if you strip him of that A how does he react?

The Flames are so tight to the cap that even if they bridge Hanifin to a reasonable deal they will still leave themselves no room whatsoever for mid season pick ups/roster changes or bonuses etc.

$1.5M over the next 4 years isn't the albatross that $4.5M over the next few is, or even over this upcoming season will be.

[TheKurgan]

I want a buyout of Brouwer and a long term extension for Hanifin.

I expect no buyout and a bridge deal for Hanifin.

Paying Brouwer 4.5mil to play the fourth line RW, or eat popcorn doesn't make much sense to me. I would rather see Foo/Mangiapane/Dube get the playing time and experience.

[Bingo]

I think it's safe to assume there is more going on than negotiating a bridge deal with Hanifin or would have been done by now.

That's not to say they're going to buy Brouwer out, but they've modeled the Brouwer buy out, a Stone trade or the like, a Hanifin bridge and it's all coming to the wire to see which way they go.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by TheKurgan

I want a buyout of Brouwer and a long term extension for Hanifin.

I expect no buyout and a bridge deal for Hanifin.

Paying Brouwer 4.5mil to play the fourth line RW, or eat popcorn doesn't make much sense to me. I would rather see Foo/Mangiapane/Dube get the playing time and experience.

I would prefer to trade Stone, call up Andersson and bury Brouwer in the minors. You get more than 3.8M off the books with those transactions, which is better than what you get with a buyout, and without the extra 2 years of dead cap space.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Originally Posted by GGG

Lets say Hanifin gets a 2 year bridge at 4 million then he develops and is worth 6 million at the end of the deal vs say 6yr 5.5 long term today. If you had to buy out Brouwer to do it you would pay Hanifin, Brouwer and the fourth liner 7.75 million for 4 years than 6.25 million for the last 2.

If you bridge Hanifin and keep Brouwer for two years you pay 8.5 million for two years then 6.75 million for 4 years.

So either way is within 1 million dollars of cap space in any of the years. The big win would be finding a way to long term with Hanifin at 5.3 only carry 13 forwards and run with no cap space.

Yes it’s obviously a risk. Giving a long term contract to a young player can also be a risk. None are perfect solutions but this seems like the safest compromise to me

[TheKurgan]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

I would prefer to trade Stone, call up Andersson and bury Brouwer in the minors. You get more than 3.8M off the books with those transactions, which is better than what you get with a buyout, and without the extra 2 years of dead cap space.

I agree a trade would be the best way to make space but I just don't see Treliving trading Stone this year for depth reasons. Couple injuries and we could have a pretty green looking blue line.

Looking out to next summer I think both Stone and Frolik are going to be gone to make room for a Tkachuk extension. If Bennett plays well we will even need to make more cap room for him.

We just don't need Brouwer anymore and it is time to move on. Stripping the A from Brouwer and sitting him in the press box could be a negative for the locker room as well. Better to pull the band-aid off quick and be done with it.

[GoJetsGo]

My issue with the "buy out Brouwer next year crowd" is I think he actively hurts us if he's on the roster this year.

He is a possession black-hole and drags down any line he's on making those he's playing with worse.

Sit him the whole year and he'll likely be disgruntled.

In either case I think we need to move and that he shouldn't be around the team as of this season. Nothing against the guy personally, he's just a bad hockey player and taking up valuable space.

[NomadAJ]

I don’t think you buyout Brouwer this year, like some have said. I also don’t think you trade Stone though cause he is a bit of insurance on the backend (Anderson shouldn’t be thrown into top 4 minutes in the event of an injury).

My thinking is that the flames should be looking to trade Frolik. Coming off an off year, but still holds some value. At 4.3, he is a bit of an expensive option on the 3rd line and we have enough young talent to fill that hole. Play Brouwer on the 4th line this year then buyout next year (or a salary retention trade if at all possible). I like Frolik, but I think he makes the most sense to move on from to clear space.


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[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by TheKurgan

I agree a trade would be the best way to make space but I just don't see Treliving trading Stone this year for depth reasons. Couple injuries and we could have a pretty green looking blue line.

Looking out to next summer I think both Stone and Frolik are going to be gone to make room for a Tkachuk extension. If Bennett plays well we will even need to make more cap room for him.

We just don't need Brouwer anymore and it is time to move on. Stripping the A from Brouwer and sitting him in the press box could be a negative for the locker room as well. Better to pull the band-aid off quick and be done with it.

I can live with a buyout if Treliving wants to keep Stone for roster flexibility/insurance going into training camp, as long as Hanifin is signed long-term for less than 5M/yr.

As for Brouwer, I think I would send him to Stockton instead of the pressbox at this point. Having him around if he's been stripped of the A might be a problem, although I do recall the Flames rotating all of their associate captains in the pressbox in the Stanley Cup season. On the other hand, sending him down gives you a few extra hundred thousand in cap space.

[Nelson]

According to CapFriendly, the Flames have $4,538,290 in cap space.

I am going to subtract 850K for Tkachuk's maximum performance bonuses because I think he is going to get them this year. I'm not going to worry about Foo, Mangiapane and Andersson's performance bonuses for the purpose of this exercise.

So that leaves $3,688,290 in cap space with 14F, 6D, 2G and 2 buyouts.

I want Hanifin signed long-term. My preference is a 7-year or 8-year contract. According to Matt Cane's algorithm, this will cost the Flames $4,440,364 or $4,645,773.

So the Flames need to clear between $752,074 and $957,483.

My preference, if I could do any of them without any added expense for nothing, to get that cap space:
1) Trade Brouwer
2) Trade Stone
3) Buyout Brouwer

If I am thinking about this from an opposing GM's perspective, I require a fairly valuable asset to take Brouwer's contract even with salary retained. So I actually don't want to do that one.

Again, from an opposing GM's perspective, I personally would want a slightly less valuable asset to take on Stone's contract compared to Brouwer's contract. I think Stone is to defencemen what Brouwer is to forwards, but he is $1M cheaper. This is because I trust the numbers I know about. But I know many of you see the way he boxes out and breaks up the cycle, the way he looks composed on the ice and how hard he can shoot the puck, and you see value in Stone. So its possible an opposing GM might take him for nothing, give you a mid-to-late round draft pick for him if you retained salary, or maybe even give you a mid-to-late round draft pick for him without salary retained (!). He is a pre-30 RH defenceman.

Finally, buying out Brouwer is probably the most realistic option and I don't hate it. If they buyout Brouwer right now, they get the buyout off the books in 21-22. If they buyout Brouwer next year, they get the buyout off the books in 20-21.

Another way to look at it is:
-it's $3M off in 18-19 and 19-20 and $1.5M more in 20-21 and 21-22 or
-it's $3M off in 19-20 and $1.5 more 20-21.
In the first option, you save $3M. In the second option, you save $1.5M.

So, if you buy him out now, you get
-$1.5M extra savings
-A forward spot for two extra years for younger, more promising players to occupy for development purposes (looking at you: Czarnik, Foo, Lazar).

If you buy him out next summer, you get
-two fewer years of the buyout being on the books, but only one fewer year into the future

Conclusion

If it were me, and I found Brouwer and Stone to be too expensive to trade or thought I might as well keep Stone for his attributes, I think I would buyout Brouwer this summer rather than next.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Nelson

According to CapFriendly, the Flames have $4,538,290 in cap space.

I am going to subtract 850K for Tkachuk's maximum performance bonuses because I think he is going to get them this year. I'm not going to worry about Foo, Mangiapane and Andersson's performance bonuses for the purpose of this exercise.

So that leaves $3,688,290 in cap space with 14F, 6D, 2G and 2 buyouts.

I want Hanifin signed long-term. My preference is a 7-year or 8-year contract. According to Matt Cane's algorithm, this will cost the Flames $4,440,364 or $4,645,773.

So the Flames need to clear between $752,074 and $957,483.

My preference, if I could do any of them without any added expense for nothing, to get that cap space:
1) Trade Brouwer
2) Trade Stone
3) Buyout Brouwer

If I am thinking about this from an opposing GM's perspective, I require a fairly valuable asset to take Brouwer's contract even with salary retained. So I actually don't want to do that one.

Again, from an opposing GM's perspective, I personally would want a slightly less valuable asset to take on Stone's contract compared to Brouwer's contract. I think Stone is to defencemen what Brouwer is to forwards, but he is $1M cheaper. This is because I trust the numbers I know about. But I know many of you see the way he boxes out and breaks up the cycle, the way he looks composed on the ice and how hard he can shoot the puck, and you see value in Stone. So its possible an opposing GM might take him for nothing, give you a mid-to-late round draft pick for him if you retained salary, or maybe even give you a mid-to-late round draft pick for him without salary retained (!). He is a pre-30 RH defenceman.

Finally, buying out Brouwer is probably the most realistic option and I don't hate it. If they buyout Brouwer right now, they get the buyout off the books in 21-22. If they buyout Brouwer next year, they get the buyout off the books in 20-21.

Another way to look at it is:
-it's $3M off in 18-19 and 19-20 and $1.5M more in 20-21 and 21-22 or
-it's $3M off in 19-20 and $1.5 more 20-21.
In the first option, you save $3M. In the second option, you save $1.5M.

So, if you buy him out now, you get
-$1.5M extra savings
-A forward spot for two extra years for younger, more promising players to occupy for development purposes (looking at you: Czarnik, Foo, Lazar).

If you buy him out next summer, you get
-two fewer years of the buyout being on the books, but only one fewer year into the future

Conclusion

If it were me, and I found Brouwer and Stone to be too expensive to trade or thought I might as well keep Stone for his attributes, I think I would buyout Brouwer this summer rather than next.

This is a well-considered position. Just 2 minor quibbles: Hanifin can't sign for 8 years, and the bonuses can be carried forward to next year if necessary, which would be less dead cap space and for fewer years compared to a buyout. On the other hand, the Flames would be right up against the cap with absolutely no roster flexibility, which isn't good either.

I guess either way, we will find out in the next 15 minutes.

[PugnaciousIntern]

I hate how predictable the anchor of this contract was the day it was signed. I know that he’s underwhelmed even compared to expectations, but this was so preventable

[Macindoc]

So, does the lack of an announcement today mean that it's not happening? Did they have to waive him today to complete the 48 hour waiver window before the buyout window closes, or is it OK as long as they begin the process by waiving him for buyout purposes before the buyout window closes?

Edit: NVM, waivers announced

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

This is a well-considered position. Just 2 minor quibbles: Hanifin can't sign for 8 years, and the bonuses can be carried forward to next year if necessary, which would be less dead cap space and for fewer years compared to a buyout. On the other hand, the Flames would be right up against the cap with absolutely no roster flexibility, which isn't good either.

I guess either way, we will find out in the next 15 minutes.

I didn't know Hanifin can't sign for 8 years. Is it because he was the Hurricanes' RFA and so he could only sign with them for 8 years?

Also, a very good point about the bonuses being carried forward and counting for less dead cap space than the buyouts and only for one year. That is also a good option, but you're right that even if the Flames just commit to paying any bonuses owed next year, a 7*4.44 contract wouldn't give them much space.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Nelson

I didn't know Hanifin can't sign for 8 years. Is it because he was the Hurricanes' RFA and so he could only sign with them for 8 years?

Also, a very good point about the bonuses being carried forward and counting for less dead cap space than the buyouts and only for one year. That is also a good option, but you're right that even if the Flames just commit to paying any bonuses owed next year, a 7*4.44 contract wouldn't give them much space.

He was not on the Flames' roster at the TDL.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

He was not on the Flames' roster at the TDL.

Thanks! I didn't know that rule.

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by Nelson

I didn't know Hanifin can't sign for 8 years. Is it because he was the Hurricanes' RFA and so he could only sign with them for 8 years?

Also, a very good point about the bonuses being carried forward and counting for less dead cap space than the buyouts and only for one year. That is also a good option, but you're right that even if the Flames just commit to paying any bonuses owed next year, a 7*4.44 contract wouldn't give them much space.

Don’t think it’s a factor anyway. The Flames never signed a guy for 8 years before.