March 28 - 30 Thoughts

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Devil's advocate.... The minute a coach goes hard ass on a player who is guaranteed 20M and has no means of punishing him and has the player quit on him .....

I think it works better when there is a Toews/ Seabrook or Iginla, Doughty, Pietroangelo , Chara, Perry, Burns or even Wheeler who can call out and push a teammate for not playing up to their potential.

Gio seems more of a come on guys sort of personality.

Hartley was coaching a bunch of guys without money for life and GG is coaching guys to whom he can't back up his " Or else"

If Hartley were to threaten 2018 Gaudreau/ Monahan/ Backlund / Hamonic / Hamilton/ Stone / Brodie / Frolik / Gio / Stajan / Brouwer with you better play harder they might go along for a game or two and then come to the conclusion that they would rather play on a better team for a better coach.

Hartley is the guy that coached Gaudreau and Monahan to their "money for life" contracts and I simply don't buy that Monahan and Gaudreau are the kind of guys that would check out on a coach. I'm not a Hartley fan and I feel his issues went beyond just a firm hand as he was not a nice person(basically an #######) which is the real reason he got canned.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Its not rotten so much as its human nature.

Too mean? Get him out. Too nice? Take advantage.

We are just left to speculate who made that approach to Treliving (about Hartley) and Gully (sounds like this was around the time of the train/beer talk). Although the latter one I always heard was Gully going to the team and asking for input during that crappy road trip right before they went on the huge run.

But to me it's clear that some guys took advantage and that the leadership in the room let them. I'm a huge Gio fan, but I don't know how much he vocally cracked the whip. He leads by example, obviously, but maybe he isn't a motivator captain who calls people out. Same for Monahan. Brouwer can't even really point to his own play as an example (though I'm not sure effort is the problem with him).

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Really, they had a coach with a firm hand in Hartley and they went and whined to management "We need a players coach, teacher like guy".

So Hartley was tossed and in comes Gully

"Thanks for being nice to us Gully, we'll decide when we want to show up for games"

There's something rotten at the core of this team and no coach is going to come in and fix it without an object lesson to encourage the others.

I have a feeling that one or two major pieces are going to take a bullet to the head in the off season.

I still think GG is not getting fired. I do think you are going to see some serious turnover with this roster instead.

[stang]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The rich get richer.

Who would Calgary have waiting in the stands compared to Winnipeg, Nashville, Tampa, Boston?

Teams that already have 4th lines that would be 3rd lines on the non-playoff teams would have even further advantage over teams that have trouble putting together a 4th line

If you want to help parity then dress 13 skaters and then maybe have a limited substitutions.

Thats not a rich get richer thing... its a building your team correctly thing.

Pretty sure at least 2 of the teams you listed have more cap space then Calgary (or Edmonton next year)

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

The only problem is that teams might keep a bruiser in the press box and only bring him in to cause havoc in the 3rd when trailing big time.

Could be an issue, but then keeping a bruiser in the PB would be like keeping one on the bench. Its a waste of a spot.

[iggy_oi]

I wouldn’t mind seeing Gio give the C to someone else. I’m not saying that to criticize Gio’s leadership or on ice performance, I just think the torch needs to be passed. When Gio was named captain it was because we simply had no other options at the time, now that we have other options I think it’s the right thing for the team for him to step aside and let someone who can lead this team now and into the future do so. Kinda like when Conroy gave the C to Iginla. I personally wouldn’t mind seeing them give the C to Tkachuk, that might not sit well with some given his age but the fact of the matter is at this point he’s clearly the heart and soul of this team, never takes a night off and the team seems to rally behind him.

[Ashasx]

I don't think it would be wise to put that kind of pressure on a young player so soon.

Besides, everything Giordano does for this team indicates he is a good leader. From his demeanor off the ice to his on-ice performance. Not sure why we wouldn't want him to be captain.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm a huge Gio fan, but I don't know how much he vocally cracked the whip. He leads by example, obviously, but maybe he isn't a motivator captain who calls people out. Same for Monahan. Brouwer can't even really point to his own play as an example (though I'm not sure effort is the problem with him).

This just feels accurate to me. These are great players, good guys, just not vocal leaders that pull you up by your collar. I think this will be addressed in the off season too. Not saying Gio or Monahan are going anywhere (not sure about Brouwer) but I think there will be a few guys not afraid to stand up and speak their mind brought in, in addition to a coach that commands respect.

[Erick Estrada]

Gio's a good leader and should remain captain for as long as possible. Iginla was never a motivator or guy to get in players faces and I'm not sure that's required as long as the coaches are getting their message across. I do think Tkachuk needs to get an 'A' as having a guy that hates to lose like him in a leadership role is probably better than a guy like Monahan who's probably too much like Gio. Not being in the locker room I can't tell you if Brouwer has much to offer but based on his play on the ice you would probably remove the 'A' and give it to Hamonic.

[868904]

Getting sick of this narrative of the lazy core. I haven't seen a lack of effort. It's a complete lack of leadership from the coaching staff. They have no idea how to deal with adversity and adjustments in game and now out of game with the current losing streak. They have no feel for the game.

Players are soldiers, they go out and and just do. Coaches are generals and commanders, they plan, strategize and make adjustments.

There are no adjustments or not the right adjustments being made under this coaching staff.

I get it, GG is a nice guy, the media loves him cause he's always accommodating, but enough with this character assassination of the Flames players. If you watch this team over the past two years, its' evident and clear where the problems are.

Also, in 2004, the "leader" of that team was NOT Iginla, Kipper or Regher. The true leader who steeled the troops was Darryl Sutter. The captains and assistant captains and veteran provide a certain level of leadership, but the coaching staff has to provide a higher and more important level. This is how it is in EVERY organization, sports or not.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Its not rotten so much as its human nature.

Too mean? Get him out. Too nice? Take advantage.

It's not human nature, unless you're a spoiled brat with a poor attitude.

Not saying that's the case here. But a good leader doesn't need a coach to inspire him night in and night out.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

It's not human nature, unless you're a spoiled brat with a poor attitude.

Not saying that's the case here. But a good leader doesn't need a coach to inspire him night in and night out.

I'm saying its human nature to take advantage of people who are too nice and to complain when someone is being tough on you.

That's not condemning an individual's character.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I still think GG is not getting fired. I do think you are going to see some serious turnover with this roster instead.

Sounds about right; a half-measure that will ensure the team's long history of disappointment and mediocrity is not disrupted.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by 868904

Getting sick of this narrative of the lazy core. I haven't seen a lack of effort. It's a complete lack of leadership from the coaching staff. They have no idea how to deal with adversity and adjustments in game and now out of game with the current losing streak. They have no feel for the game.

Players are soldiers, they go out and and just do. Coaches are generals and commanders, they plan, strategize and make adjustments.

There are no adjustments or not the right adjustments being made under this coaching staff.

I get it, GG is a nice guy, the media loves him cause he's always accommodating, but enough with this character assassination of the Flames players. If you watch this team over the past two years, its' evident and clear where the problems are.

Also, in 2004, the "leader" of that team was NOT Iginla, Kipper or Regher. The true leader who steeled the troops was Darryl Sutter. The captains and assistant captains and veteran provide a certain level of leadership, but the coaching staff has to provide a higher and more important level. This is how it is in EVERY organization, sports or not.

By 'lazy' i take people to mean, a player who is happy to put in the minutes collect big $$$ and enjoy life as an NHL athlete, but could really care less whether the team competes for the Cup in any given year - on the assumption that opportunity will arise at some point during their career.

So they are not soldiers, but rather opportunists who coast for most of their career waiting for the right circumstance to put the foot on the gas pedal.

Calgary has a lot of these sort of players - and very few of the 'soldiers' you mention.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Gio's a good leader and should remain captain for as long as possible. Iginla was never a motivator or guy to get in players faces and I'm not sure that's required as long as the coaches are getting their message across. I do think Tkachuk needs to get an 'A' as having a guy that hates to lose like him in a leadership role is probably better than a guy like Monahan who's probably too much like Gio. Not being in the locker room I can't tell you if Brouwer has much to offer but based on his play on the ice you would probably remove the 'A' and give it to Hamonic.

Funny thing about Brouwer - and this anecdotal - I know someone who was on the Flames' charter all year last year, and they said Brouwer was the rudest one on the plane. Said that the best time on the plane was when Brouwer was injured and wasn't travelling with the team as the younger guys adjusted their behavior after Troy... take it for what it's worth.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Jumping into an NHL game after sitting in the PB for two periods without a warmup or stretch seems like an injury waiting to happen.

They specifically say that they'd wind up watching the game on a bike and staying warm in case they have to go in. Shouldn't be an issue.

Originally Posted by stang

Thats not a rich get richer thing... its a building your team correctly thing.

Exactly. "But the guys they have in the press box are better than the guys we have on the ice!" Aw, muffin. Draft better.

Could be an issue, but then keeping a bruiser in the PB would be like keeping one on the bench. Its a waste of a spot.

Yes. This seems less likely than, for example, having a guy in there who's an offensive dynamo or a shootout expert who comes into the game for overtime. Or maybe strategies open up where you have a guy who you absolutely flog for ice time in the first half of the game such that he's gassed, and then sub him out for a similar-style player who's fresh. Instead of never playing a game, Josh Leivo plays 30 half-games. It's good for everyone.

I absolutely love the idea.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Corral

By 'lazy' i take people to mean, a player who is happy to put in the minutes collect big $$$ and enjoy life as an NHL athlete, but could really care less whether the team competes for the Cup in any given year - on the assumption that opportunity will arise at some point during their career.

So they are not soldiers, but rather opportunists who coast for most of their career waiting for the right circumstance to put the foot on the gas pedal.

Calgary has a lot of these sort of players - and very few of the 'soldiers' you mention.

You are taking "soldier" too literally.

I'm not saying this roster is perfect, no roster is perfect. Is Phil Kessel a "hard worker"? Were Crosby and Malkin lazy 3 years ago?

Or were they just playing the wrong system and for a bad coach?

Coaches make all the difference in the world. The Penguins are the best example of this. You have two generational centremen and that team sucked under Johnston, a bad coach. There was talk of trading Crosby and Malkin, tearing that core to shreds.

Instead, they hire a decent coach, and all of a sudden, they are great again.

I'm not saying the Flames will win the cup by hiring a Darryl Sutter, but this roster was universally lauded at the start of the season. This roster has players that have been "winners" in the past. This roster has players who have overcome a lot of adversity to get to where they are. There are a few "bad apples" on the roster who I would consider "lazy" but I don't see this as any different from any other team.

I wouldn't rip this core apart until I've given a reputable coach a try. I would trade Hamilton though if it meant getting a good return but under no circumstances do I keep GG.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

The only problem is that teams might keep a bruiser in the press box and only bring him in to cause havoc in the 3rd when trailing big time.

That's addressed in the article by Bowman:

I think the idea used to be, you didn’t want a situation where if someone was coming in down four goals, they’d start a lot of trouble. But those guys don’t exist any more.”

Edit. Another interesting one for us:

12. The Panthers are trying to trade 2016 second-rounder Adam Mascherin of OHL Kitchener. A 40-goal scorer for the Rangers, he informed Florida he would not sign there before he can re-enter the draft in June. It’s unfortunate, as it appears there was some broken telephone that made things worse than they needed to be. This will not be easy for the Panthers, since interested teams won’t want to give up something if they think they can just draft him in three months. Their best hope is that someone who lacks draft choices where Mascherin might be taken decides it really wants him.

Mascherin is a LW which we don't have as much of a need for and people will look at his height and wipe their nose at him. He is 5 9 or 10 but about 200lbs so tiny he isn't. If the price was right...

[stang]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

They specifically say that they'd wind up watching the game on a bike and staying warm in case they have to go in. Shouldn't be an issue.

Exactly. "But the guys they have in the press box are better than the guys we have on the ice!" Aw, muffin. Draft better.

Yes. This seems less likely than, for example, having a guy in there who's an offensive dynamo or a shootout expert who comes into the game for overtime. Or maybe strategies open up where you have a guy who you absolutely flog for ice time in the first half of the game such that he's gassed, and then sub him out for a similar-style player who's fresh. Instead of never playing a game, Josh Leivo plays 30 half-games. It's good for everyone.

I absolutely love the idea.

Exactly

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I don't think it would be wise to put that kind of pressure on a young player so soon.

I know what you’re saying, I just think he’s best suited to be the next captain. It could be a thing that happens in a year or two but I think it will need to happen at some point.

Besides, everything Giordano does for this team indicates he is a good leader. From his demeanor off the ice to his on-ice performance. Not sure why we wouldn't want him to be captain.

I don’t disagree that gio is an excellent player and does a lot for the team(and community) but I just look at the results and question his ability to get the other players to step up when it’s needed.

[Vinny01]

They went the velvet glove approach and the team simply is not mature enough to thrive in that setting. Hartley might have been a hard ass but the team had no choice but to respect the firm hand. He was “coach Hartley” and now we have “Gully” getting grades for his stick toss.

Is there a middle of the road coach that can really manage the hard and soft approach?

The team wanted a soft hand and responded with a wildcard sweep and playoff miss. Sorry fellas you didn’t get the results so the coach needs to move on.

The leadership group needs to be shaken up as well. Brouwer gone, and maybe even Gio? Tkachuk deserves a letter and I am not sure Monahan does.

Treliving has a lot of reflection and work ahead but this thing needs major changes next year