Wedded to a Welfare State

[Claeren]

Well if Japan has their way it won't be long until there is a 'personal robotic assistant' helping with all aspects of an aging persons life.

Who cares about population when productivity, thanks to the use of robotic slaves, is through the roof?



Claeren.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by HOZ@Oct 2 2005, 08:32 AM
You know nothing about me. Don't pretend you do. Considering that I have voted twice for the Liberals and twice for the conservatives I would think it would be very difficult to say I am a RIGHT WING. In those questionaires that pop up here that are suppose to place us in the political spectrum I have continuously ended up left of centre.

Who really cares who you vote for HOZ, I've voted conservative in every single election I've been privy to, however, I don't consider myself agreeing some of the conservative ideology as well as many other parts. However, I've cast my vote for what I feel is the lesser of 2 evils, and what will be best for this country in the long run.

You don't need to get so darn defensive, your views are very consistant with right wing politics, almost every single article you've posted is a) trying to be critical of the Welfare state, b) pro-interventionalist, c) lavish praise of right wing politicians.

[CaramonLS]

Cow you have a point here, but for every freeloader the welfare system has, many more are actually in need of its services.

People might discount the roll of the welfare state, but there are so many people born into poverty in which they have very few or very low paying ways out. Right now, there are tons of jobs which people can take full time and still live under the poverty line, hell, Imagine trying to support a family with one of those jobs. In every society there are going to be people who struggle to get ahead and can't get out of a vicous cycle.

I guess it comes down to what you beleive. I'd rather have someone sucking back some money from the government instead of selling drugs on the street.

[tjinaz]

I believe HOZ is right in a number of ways.

1. The birthrate in the majority of the European countries among the Native inhabitants is negative. The Native Germans, Dutch, French, Belgians etc are not reproducing at a rate to keep their numbers. Consequently the majority of the citizens of these countries will be either imigrants or offspring of imigrants within this century.

2. These nations are not integrating the imigrants into the fabric of the country as the US does. They are staying in their own enclaves and preserving the culture of their country of origin. This coupled with their dynamic reproduction rate spells trouble for the historic culture of Europe.

3. The Economies that are the traditional engine for Europe (France and Germany) are reeling under the weight of social programs. Just as the Baby boomers in the US are putting additional strain on the US social security system the boomers of Europe are dragging the economy down. The difference is the US economy is much more robust and growing at 3% or more, Germany and France will be lucky to see 1%. Europe traditionally provides more cradle to the grave services to its citizens, this coupled with the under performance of the economy as a whole is endangering stability. The citizens of Europe have come to expect the government to take care of them. Now with unemployment at over 10% in both Germany and France (worst since the Wiemar republic in Germany) there are not enough taxes being paid to cover the expenses of services the general populace. The excessive regulation of business in both countries is driving out investment in favor of educated work forces of eastern Europe an Asia so the Corporate tax base is dropping as well.

4. While this does not spell the end of the high degree of social services in Europe there will need to be major reform similar to those England went through under Thatcher to ensure stability and regain economic growth. Problem is there is no leader in either France or Germany that is capable of making those reforms so the economies will continue to falter. The longer these reforms are put off, the higher the possibility of civil unrest as the situation worsens.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Here's a great innovation

[HOZ]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 3 2005, 03:08 AM
Here's a great innovation

I stand corrected. What a thing of beauty! :biglaff:

[HOZ]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Oct 2 2005, 06:15 PM
a) trying to be critical of the Welfare state, b) pro-interventionalist, c) lavish praise of right wing politicians.

A) Being against or FOR REFORM of old lavish socialist-style welfare is hardly rightwing. Quite conservative.

B) Blair is too...and he is what? A Nazi? Labour I believe i.e. left of centre. The pro-interventionalists come from all over the spectrum as to the anti-interventionalists

C) Lavish praise for whom? Fed up rediculous unsubstantiated criticisms of the US and Bush...yes. Lavish praise...nope.

[Cowperson]

A guy who made the Top 100 Intellectuals list puts his brain power to work on looking at the German situation:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9558224/site/newsweek/

Cowperson

[Agamemnon]

And it is not just talk. German industry has begun a process of deep restructuring, forced by the pressures of global capitalism as much as by any government policies. Last week, despite the election results, Mercedes confirmed 8,500 job cuts and Volkswagen announced that it would keep a plant open because its union had agreed to large cost reductions. As a result of such measures, Germany's most competitive industries already are strengthening. Only two major economies have actually gained in their share of global exports of manufactured goods in the past five years: China and Germany. Last year Germany became the world's leading exporter of goods, larger even than the United States, despite the fact that the U.S. economy is five times as large. Germany's labor productivity is as high as that of America's, and its unit labor costs are now lower.

Looks like it's not all bad news for the German economy.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by tjinaz@Oct 2 2005, 08:33 PM
2. These nations are not integrating the imigrants into the fabric of the country as the US does. They are staying in their own enclaves and preserving the culture of their country of origin. This coupled with their dynamic reproduction rate spells trouble for the historic culture of Europe.

America integrates immigrants? Wow, what a load of shinguard. What part of Arizona do you live in? Colorado City?

[tjinaz]

Phoenix actually....

In my development I have afro american neighbors, mexican neighbors, Pakistani neighbors, Viet neighbors and a Indian couple down the block. We are maybe 50% caucasian.

Where I work I have Afro Americans, Mexicans, a ton of Indians (software you know) and couple Viets and ethnic Chinese. More "foreigners" where I work than caucasians as well.

Can't tell you about the east but as far as the southwest goes, we celebrate the hispanic culture as much as the anglo. I would say the mexicans and south americans integrate rather well. You have as many americans learning spanish as mexicans learning english. The only time we have trouble is when the US soccer team plays Mexico. Except for then I would say 90% of the people would say the are an American not a Mexican living in America. (except for the illegals, then it is really Mexican living in america)

As compared to the government supplied Arab slums outside Paris? Or the Turkish slums in Germany?

Oh and Colorado city is more about religion than race.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by tjinaz@Oct 5 2005, 07:58 PM
As compared to the government supplied Arab slums outside Paris? Or the Turkish slums in Germany?

Sure, and feel free to drive through Guadalupe some time. Or maybe feel free to drive down Mesa in the mornings and see how well the immigrants are assimilated in the United States.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by tjinaz@Oct 5 2005, 07:58 PM
Phoenix actually....

In my development I have afro american neighbors, mexican neighbors, Pakistani neighbors, Viet neighbors and a Indian couple down the block. We are maybe 50% caucasian.

Where I work I have Afro Americans, Mexicans, a ton of Indians (software you know) and couple Viets and ethnic Chinese. More "foreigners" where I work than caucasians as well.

Can't tell you about the east but as far as the southwest goes, we celebrate the hispanic culture as much as the anglo. I would say the mexicans and south americans integrate rather well. You have as many americans learning spanish as mexicans learning english. The only time we have trouble is when the US soccer team plays Mexico. Except for then I would say 90% of the people would say the are an American not a Mexican living in America. (except for the illegals, then it is really Mexican living in america)

Again, more bullshinguard. I live in Phoenix as well and know quite well what the racial and ethnic situation is like (I work for one of the government security agencies). Things are no where near as rosy as you like to paint them. We have a major issue with immigrants, legal or not.

[Flame Of Liberty]

I find it truly hilarious that apologist of welfare state are still blind to see that Germany is going down and fast. Rigid labour market, over 5 million unemployed, in some parts of eastern Germany unemployment rate has soared to 30 per cent, despite of billions euro being poured there every year. Welfare state is collapsing, the economic is stagnating, companies are shifting production to the East. Yet everyone and their dog refuse to even talk about much needed reforms. People rather believe Schroder (again) and his populist promises. Sacred cow of social state remains untouchable; there is no willingness to change anything. Not to mention that German foreign policy is turning away from the US and embracing Cuba, China and Iran.

But yeah Germany is in no trouble at all. That kool aid must taste great.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Oct 6 2005, 01:06 PM
I find it truly hilarious that apologist of welfare state are still blind to see that Germany is going down and fast. Rigid labour market, over 5 million unemployed, in some parts of eastern Germany unemployment rate has soared to 30 per cent, despite of billions euro being poured there every year. Welfare state is collapsing, the economic is stagnating, companies are shifting production to the East. Yet everyone and their dog refuse to even talk about much needed reforms. People rather believe Schroder (again) and his populist promises. Sacred cow of social state remains untouchable; there is no willingness to change anything. Not to mention that German foreign policy is turning away from the US and embracing Cuba, China and Iran.

But yeah Germany is in no trouble at all. That kool aid must taste great.

2 things.

1. If you read above, you'll see that the 'picture' being painted about Germany by many economists is mixed, not gloomy. They are the largest exporter in the world.
2. 'Socialism = Evil' is not a 'fact', you can not bring up the fact that Germany isn't a hard-right-wing state and call it an automatic negative. Not before proving "Socialism = Evil", and your track record of pro-Anarcho/Capitalism (Utopianism) here is well documented, if totally unsuccessful.

[tjinaz]

Again, more bullshinguard. I live in Phoenix as well and know quite well what the racial and ethnic situation is like (I work for one of the government security agencies). Things are no where near as rosy as you like to paint them. We have a major issue with immigrants, legal or not.

Ok then show me the riots and "honor" killings here. Where is the race based violence? There is violence due to crime but not because of race. Look at the entire west side of Phoenix. Roughly half white half mexican... because it is unintegrated? 500,000 people live there. Show me the government supplied housing (read ghettos) they put all the imigrant mexicans in here and then keep them there. The question is not whether we have imigrants the question is are they becoming part of the community. Go to the next Cardinals/Cowboys game.

I live in south phoenix in the Baseline corridor and I have no problems. Compared to the Turkish situation in Germany and the Arab situation in France, the US is a utopia.

[longsuffering]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Oct 6 2005, 06:06 AM
Not to mention that German foreign policy is turning away from the US and embracing Cuba, China and Iran.

You've got to be kidding. Outrageous even for FOL

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by tjinaz@Oct 6 2005, 03:45 PM
I live in south phoenix in the Baseline corridor and I have no problems. Compared to the Turkish situation in Germany and the Arab situation in France, the US is a utopia.

... Wow.

I find it odd that you're disqualifying the fact that racism exists in the United States because of your own personal experiences ('I live in south phoenix...'), and yet you feel free to point out that Germany/France have racism issues because... you've been there and lived there? How can you discount American racism out of personal experience, and then spout out that the Euro's have all kinds of racist issues? I don't see how you can do that without being hypocritical.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crs/pubs/htecrm.htm

CRS conciliators helped administrators of a high school in Tucson, Arizona, following two months of racial violence between white, black, and Hispanic students, with one incident requiring the response of more than 120 law enforcement officers. CRS helped restore stability in the schools and ease tensions in the community.

Turns out Tuscon has some real race-issues, but Phoenix is exempt?

Your credibility is shot on this issue, unless you've got some stellar insight here.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by longsuffering@Oct 6 2005, 04:45 PM
You've got to be kidding. Outrageous even for FOL

Didn't you know? Having relations with China, Cuba, and Iran is evil and wrong, and having relations with the US is good and right.

Don't you watch TV?

Canada trades with Iran, China and Cuba... I wonder if we're going the way of the Germans

[Cowperson]

Not so fast . . . the European Union's competition minister wants Europeans to take fewer holiday's and spread them out through the year in order to compete better globally.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4316806.stm

Cowperson