How does Matthew Tkachuk compare to the best rookies in Flames history?

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Gary Suter says hi for the 2nd time this week!

Not only hi, but hi from the 9th round!
And Sergei says hi from the 12th!

[Johnny Makarov]

One guy who gets overlooked was Dan Quinn. Called up 1/3 through the season and got still got 52 points in 54 games as a 17 year old.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Said it earlier in the thread... nope.

I started watching hockey in 2005-06. I started really intently following it in 2008.

I've witnessed great rookie years in person from Phaneuf, Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett, and now Tkachuk.

You also said that you were looking for opinions from a historical perspective.

I responded with what you asked for and you immediately want to argue why Tkachuk is better, when you have virtually zero perspective, except for stats and the last 10 years of viewing.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by timbit

You also said that you were looking for opinions from a historical perspective.

I responded with what you asked for and you immediately want to argue why Tkachuk is better, when you have virtually zero perspective, except for stats and the last 10 years of viewing.

For two of the players. For Nieuwendyk, Suter, and Theo, I essentially conceded the point.

[FireGilbert]

You can only compare Tkachuk to other 19 year old Rookies. Nieuwendyk was 21, Makarov 30, Wilson 22, Suter 21, Gaudreau 21 for example.

Based on this he should be judged vs Quinn and Iginla and if Tkachuk keeps up this pace he might be able to pass both their point totals.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

You can only compare Tkachuk to other 19 year old Rookies. Nieuwendyk was 21, Makarov 30, Wilson 22, Suter 21, Gaudreau 21 for example.

Based on this he should be judged vs Quinn and Iginla and if Tkachuk keeps up this pace he might be able to pass both their point totals.

Agreed. However, that was not how he posed the question.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

It's a fair question for sure, this not too long ago article shows the top 25 rookie scorers for the Flames:

Pointwise he'll finish maybe in 8th alone with 56 points but when you start to consider some of the other stats and what he's accomplished to go along with the fact that he's 18 and one of the youngest Flames rookies then I think it puts him up there with the Suter's (sorry Bingo ) Iginla's, Fleury's, Gaudreau's.

I think he has a case for top 5 all time Flames rookies IMHO

I believe 56 points would make him 7th. Love that chart though, thanks.

[Buff]

In my books, the best rookie season goes to Joe Nieuwendyk. Gary Suter was pretty darn good too. I'd even pick Fleury who joined a veteran team and played mostly on the 3rd line and still was only 2 points shy of a point per game. I'd go with those three, in that order.

Gaudreau would be in the mix.

When exacty was Vernon's rookie season? Was it 85-86 when he played in 18 games with a 9-3-3 record and then backstopped us to the final round, or was it the following year, where he was a solid #1 but not quite as magical as the previous year?

Tkachuk ranks up their though. He started a bit slowly, but once he got comfortable with the NHL game he quickly progressed and is still progressing. He brings a different game too with his physicality and his pestliness, (yes, I made up my own word) so he may be comparable to Fleury. Fleury was a pest who scored. Tkachuk is a pest who scores.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by timbit

Agreed. However, that was not how he posed the question.

But all he did was pose a question. Your responses sound incredulous that he'd even ask or that he implied Tkatchuk is the best rookie ever. As if it's insulting to the greatest flames rookies that anyone would even ask how he compares.

[FireGilbert]

When comparing with the 80s players you also have to take into account the fact it was a higher scoring era. The 1987/88 Flames scored 397 goals while the 2016/17 Flames are on pace for 225. Nieuwendyk would have only scored 52 points if playing today.

[chockfullofgoodness]

Originally Posted by timbit

Fleury played on the 4th line on a stacked Cup team. He was a better rookie than Tkachuk, whom I really like. On the 4th line he was almost a point a game.

Nothing against Theo, he's probably my favourite Flames player of all time, but points were a little bit easier to come by in his era.

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

When comparing with the 80s players you also have to take into account the fact it was a higher scoring era. The 1987/88 Flames scored 397 goals while the 2016/17 Flames are on pace for 225. Nieuwendyk would have only scored 52 points if playing today.

I don't think you can compare the totals against the team totals because the 1988 Flames were the highest scoring team in hockey while the 2017 Flames are middle of the pack somewhere. If you are going to compare eras, you need to compare against the league. The point that the guys playing in the 80s wouldn't be scoring as much today, is certainly valid.

Nieuwendyk had one of the best rookie seasons in the history of the NHL. No one has claimed that about Tkachuk.

He has had a very good rookie season, and his future is very bright.

Also in the discussion, don't forget Tom Lysiak, who had 64 points as a rookie and was runner up in the Calder voting. Also, Willie Plett won the Calder as well with 33 goals and 56 points in 64 games. Eric Vail is another winner as he had 39 goals as a rookie.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

I don't think you can compare the totals against the team totals because the 1988 Flames were the highest scoring team in hockey while the 2017 Flames are middle of the pack somewhere. If you are going to compare eras, you need to compare against the league. The point that the guys playing in the 80s wouldn't be scoring as much today, is certainly valid.

Just comparing against the whole league is unrealistic too, because divisional play was very lopsided and dominated schedules. The Flames/Oilers of that era made a living beating up on some terrible Smythe division teams, whereas there was a lot more parity out East.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

At this point in his first season, Niewendyk was on course to break the all-time record for goals by a rookie. I love Matthew Tkachuk, and he's having a great season. But it's just not the same as watching a Flames rookie having one of the best seasons by a rookie in the history of the NHL.

I don't know if many remember how good Niewy was. Amazing player on his own merits. Was still captain for a short time with the pedestal jersey.

[Beninho]

Since I've been watching the Flames (since 2004) Tkachuk and Johnny have been the obvious best. I can't really comment on rookies before that but as of now I have Tkachuk and Johnny's season as pretty even. Tkachuk's potential gets me all excited.

[Boxman]

I have never seen a rookie with a simpler game. Tkachuk makes it look easy. It seems he has another gear. Saw that in the final 2 seconds of the game today where he dove face first into a point shot, 3 goals up, to try to ensure the shutout.

Imagine if he looked like he was skating hard...

[dying4acup]

Would also like to put Monahan season in recognition here.

Not historic by any means, but he was the Flames highest draft pick in a very long time. Actually at the time tied for highest draft pick ever. He delivered on and has exceeded all expectations from his rookie season straight out of the draft and every day since.

Might not be the Flames best rookie ever, but might be their most important prospect ever.

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Just comparing against the whole league is unrealistic too, because divisional play was very lopsided and dominated schedules. The Flames/Oilers of that era made a living beating up on some terrible Smythe division teams, whereas there was a lot more parity out East.

The Flames and Oilers made the Smythe one of the best divisions. The Norris was the division that was terrible.

[Jakester]

Didn't they change the rules on Calder Trophy eligibility because Makarov won as a 31 year old who had ten years experience in the Soviet league?

I don't think Iggy's rookie season should be overlooked. He scored 50 points as a 19 year old on a bad team at the beginning of a very low scoring era.

Was Carey Wilson actually that good or was his 72 point rookie season a product of the mid 80's?

[Flashpoint]

I feel old.

He probably isn't top 5 for rookie seasons, and he's certainly my favorite Flame at the moment. His impact with fiestiness is similar to Fleury.

Let's not forget though. The season isn't ending in April this year!

So if he goes like Vernon... he could be in the conversation.