09-17-2005, 11:39 AM
|
#21
|
Fearmongerer
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
|
Wow.
FOL...its still HIS money that HE is paying...regardless of the source. End of argument.
Academic eggheads love to spin things in 77 different ways...when in reality its very simple and straight forward.
his money - his taxes paid = him as a taxpayer.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:42 AM
|
#22
|
I believe in the Pony Power
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 11:34 AM
A quick quote from Making Economic Sense by M. Rothbard because I am too confusing to make sense:
And that is: contrary to carefully instilled myth, politicians and bureaucrats pay no taxes. Take, for example, a politician who receives a salary of, say, $80,000; assume he duly files his income tax return, and pays $20,000. We must realize that he does not in reality pay $20,000 in taxes; instead, he is simply a net tax-receiver of $60,000. The notion that he pays taxes is simply an accounting fiction, designed to bamboozle the citizenry into believing that he and the rest of us are on the same moral and financial footing before the law. He pays nothing; he simply is extracting $60,000 per annum from our pockets.
The same principle, too, applies to sales or property or any other tax. Bureaucrats and politicians do not pay them; they are simply subtracted from the net transfer to themselves from the body of taxpayers.
|
OK so by that logic any employee of the government is not a taxpayer?
What a horribly flawed argument. He gets a portion of his taxes deducted for tax purposes - that's all that matters.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:44 AM
|
#23
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sydney, NSfW
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Cheese@Sep 17 2005, 06:38 PM
YOU are the one who started the p1ssing match FOL. You think you have a better read than most here because you have lived in a few countries for a year? IF you lived in those countries with the same myopic view you have now I would suggest you didnt really learn anything anyways.
|
Stop putting words into my mouth. I never said I have better read than most people here. It was _you_ who said Canada is the best country. I merely asked what is your credentials for such a claim. You said you visited many countries. To me, that is not enough to fully experience each country enough to be able to say which country is the best to live in.
You didnt answer my question. Can you compare Canada and Australia and can you tell me which one is better to live in? I have never lived in Canada so I cannot compare them. You have never lived in Australia yet you reckon you can say which country is better.
Now who is claiming that he has better read than most people here?
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:44 AM
|
#24
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Calgary, AB
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Cheese@Sep 17 2005, 11:06 AM
Either we are little countries within a large land mass where everyone can do what they please without worrying about their neighbors...
|
Thats precisely it, and we can only ignore it for so long.
Canada has always been two or three nations... Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes... now its definitely more. Logical people would have never made Canada as it is today, but it was convenient for the British and necessary for Upper Canadian politicians to insulate themselves from the US civil war and other concerns within the continent.
As for Alberta having to share more... come on Cheese, you're smarter than this. Since 1961, Alberta has gone through two recessions, and has been a net contributor of $350 billion dollars with zero years of receivership. Pre-1961, the money Alberta received was equal to every other province due to post-war and post-depression reinvestment schemes... before that, the National Policy kept Alberta poor to prop up Eastern businesses, rather than use the cheaper, more efficient (and frankly better) US products available to them at that time. So don't try to say that Alberta owes Canada jack. If they want some money, give Alberta jurisdiction over the national parks in the province, and allow it to be administered here, where we'd make twice the money and still charge less and keep them beautiful and untouched.
We do more than our bit for queen and country here and to ask for more is like a spoiled brat asking his sibling for some of their allowance after squandering all of theirs recklessly. Maybe the Government should mandate some auto factories to Alberta, or give us proceeds from hydro, forestry, fisheries, tourism, agriculture, and everything else that happens to exist in any other province that should be shared. This isn't a centralized government, this is a nation of nations, and any attempt to screw with the uneasy peace will inevitably end with the destruction of Canada as we know it.
Good on Klein. I'd make an even tougher statement if the Feds start moving... touch it and we leave, and try to take BC and Saskatchewan with us.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:46 AM
|
#25
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sydney, NSfW
|
Quote:
Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 17 2005, 06:39 PM
Wow.
FOL...its still HIS money that HE is paying...regardless of the source. End of argument.
Academic eggheads love to spin things in 77 different ways...when in reality its very simple and straight forward.
his money - his taxes paid = him as a taxpayer.
|
OK.
So I take 10 bucks from your left pocket and give 2 bucks into your right pocket.
Am I paying you 2 bucks?
Or am I stealing 8 bucks from you?
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:52 AM
|
#26
|
Fearmongerer
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
|
Quote:
OK.
So I take 10 bucks from your left pocket and give 2 bucks into your right pocket.
Am I paying you 2 bucks?
Or am I stealing 8 bucks from you?
|
If I had agreed to pay you for a service or a product...niether. Klein has agreed to do work on behalf of a group of people called Albertans. he is compensated for such work. Its all part of capitalism that you so vehemently defend at other times.
He is paid to perform a service which he was democratically elected to do.
What about this is so hard for you to get your head around?
Again...you are a very confusing individual.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:52 AM
|
#27
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 01:44 PM
Stop putting words into my mouth. I never said I have better read than most people here. It was _you_ who said Canada is the best country. I merely asked what is your credentials for such a claim. You said you visited many countries. To me, that is not enough to fully experience each country enough to be able to say which country is the best to live in.
You didnt answer my question. Can you compare Canada and Australia and can you tell me which one is better to live in? I have never lived in Canada so I cannot compare them. You have never lived in Australia yet you reckon you can say which country is better.
Now who is claiming that he has better read than most people here?
|
well how on earth does one respond to this? OK I will compare Canada and Australia extremly narrowly...and personally yes I would put Canada ahead of Australia. We dont have to worry about Crocs, multiple venemous spiders and snakes, arid deserts, rabbit and kangaroo over-populations, temps in the high 40s celsius or homes without central heating in the winter. Governments are comparable. Now what? Canada vs Finland? Canada vs Sweden? where does it end?
OH did I tell you I have family members in Australia? yeesh man.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:53 AM
|
#28
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sydney, NSfW
|
Quote:
Originally posted by JiriHrdina@Sep 17 2005, 06:42 PM
OK so by that logic any employee of the government is not a taxpayer?
|
Yeah. Though it can be argued that state employees such as firemen provide necessary services. Those services would be demanded even if they werent state employees. Unlike politicians.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:55 AM
|
#29
|
In Your MCP
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Watching Hot Dog Hans
|
Hey, I have no problem sharing the wealth right now. But just so you know, if we allow the feds open access to the oil and gas market, when it crashes I'm the first in line to collect my royalties from the fisheries and forests in BC, fisheries and off shore oil in the East coast, hydro in Quebec, or whatever I see is making money at the time. I mean hey, it's all ours right? Even though I'm thousands of kilometers away, and have NO CLUE how to fish the open seas of Newfoundland, I want the money it generates when oil is no longer generating revenue. But wait.....what are the chances of me actually seeing a nickel from the Feds if that happens? I didn't see anything the last time, but hey things change right?
The reason a lot of Albertans don't want the Feds dipping in is because of what happened under Trudeau (the NEP). Instead of trying to pillage the resources short term, why not sit back and collect the money that's already being sent? When is enough enough? The NEP caused such a major clusterfata the last time it came around, if it's implemented again (or anything close to it) you're going to see a real push for sovereignty in Alberta (how could there not be?). IMO It won't be about politics for Alberta residents, it will be about their livelyhoods, and you'll see all kinds of wingnut politicians stirring the sovereignty pot using exactly that as a platform. I was 7yrs old when Trudeau implemented that BS, and I remember first hand watching people lose everything. Have we forgotten the past already? Not likely. So why rock the boat?
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:55 AM
|
#30
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: YSJ (1979-2002) -> YYC (2002-2022) -> YVR (2022-present)
|
I'm going to have to agree with transplant99 on this one. Politicians (and all government employees, for that matter) still pay taxes. Yes, they are a net recipient of government money, but at least they earn that money by providing services to the citizens of the country/province/municipality/etc. It's not like politicians, members of the armed forces, civil servants, and other government employees just sit around doing nothing until their bi-weekly taxpayer-supplied cheque arrives.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:55 AM
|
#31
|
I believe in the Pony Power
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 11:46 AM
OK.
So I take 10 bucks from your left pocket and give 2 bucks into your right pocket.
Am I paying you 2 bucks?
Or am I stealing 8 bucks from you?
|
Overly simplistic view of what taxes are....and your use of the word "stealing" speaks volumes about how you view taxes.
Let me ask you this.
Do you think that employees of the government should have taxes out of their savings beyond what is deducted from their pay cheques?
Ultimately how else should the system of taxation work for those that are employed by the government?
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:55 AM
|
#32
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sydney, NSfW
|
Quote:
Originally posted by Cheese@Sep 17 2005, 06:52 PM
well how on earth does one respond to this? OK I will compare Canada and Australia extremly narrowly...and personally yes I would put Canada ahead of Australia. We dont have to worry about Crocs, multiple venemous spiders and snakes, arid deserts, rabbit and kangaroo over-populations, temps in the high 40s celsius or homes without central heating in the winter. Governments are comparable. Now what? Canada vs Finland? Canada vs Sweden? where does it end?
OH did I tell you I have family members in Australia? yeesh man.
|
lol ok Australia losses because of crocs. Really nothing else to say here.
BTW Where does it end? You tell me, obviously you are capable to compare all countries to be able to say which one is the best.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 11:59 AM
|
#33
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sydney, NSfW
|
Quote:
Originally posted by JiriHrdina@Sep 17 2005, 06:55 PM
Overly simplistic view of what taxes are....and your use of the word "stealing" speaks volumes about how you view taxes.
Let me ask you this.
Do you think that employees of the government should have taxes out of their savings beyond what is deducted from their pay cheques?
Ultimately how else should the system of taxation work for those that are employed by the government?
|
You dont mind paying taxes, thats fair.
I mind paying taxes. I didnt give any permission to anyone to take away my money. How is that not stealing from me?
I am saying state employees dont pay and cannot possibly pay taxes (while in elected position) because all their income is from taxes already collected. They take amount X from that and take Y back. Which means they simply took X-Y.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 12:02 PM
|
#35
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sydney, NSfW
|
Quote:
Originally posted by MarchHare@Sep 17 2005, 06:55 PM
I'm going to have to agree with transplant99 on this one. Politicians (and all government employees, for that matter) still pay taxes. Yes, they are a net recipient of government money, but at least they earn that money by providing services to the citizens of the country/province/municipality/etc. It's not like politicians, members of the armed forces, civil servants, and other government employees just sit around doing nothing until their bi-weekly taxpayer-supplied cheque arrives.
|
See thats the difference. Firemen provide useful services virtually everyone is willing to pay for.
What useful services do politicians provide? The fact they order us around? Thanks for that.
There are people who dont want to pay taxes. Why do you think tax evasion is a crime? Because people do not want to pay taxes and they wouldnt be paying taxes if they werent forced to do so.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 12:17 PM
|
#36
|
Fearmongerer
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
|
Quote:
The province with the fastest growing economy, the province with the lowest taxes, the province with no provincial debt... is saying "fata you".
|
No they're not. They already give 12 BILLION dollars a year....of THEIR money.
And again...know why it is the fastest growing economy, lowest taxes and NO DEBT....because the people IN THAT province already toiled and paid for it for YEARS through the 90's.
WHere was the rest of Canada while that was going on? Oh yeah...still collecting transfer payments from Alberta!!
Quote:
"We already give enough". According to whom?
|
Enough is enough when the people whose money it is...say so.
It really passes ME off when every one else wants more and more and more...when all Alberta has done is give and give and give.....but when people were losing their homes by the thousands during the NEP....the rest of Canada was saying "fata you".
Payback is a bitch.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 12:22 PM
|
#37
|
#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Calgary
|
What's the point of this? As long as FoL believes that taxes = theft and government = mafia, then there's no topic to discuss. Both 'sides' aren't speaking the same language here.
Though, if you truly do feel that the Canadian Government (or whatever country) is 'stealing' from you, FoL, you must feel pretty darn emasculated most of the time. I'd never let anyone treat me the way you let the government treat you, stealing your money and telling you what to do. Doesn't it speak volumes about your character if you truly believe these things, and yet plod along like the rest of us ignorant joe's? I assume you pay taxes...? Ride the bus? Enjoy fire/police protection? Aren't you massively hypocritical, if this is the case? And if so, how much can your opinion actually be worth? Just asking...
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 12:28 PM
|
#38
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Calgary, AB
|
Normally I'd be on FoL's side here, but to assume that people can live without government and taxation and what they get from said taxation is simply ridiculous.
Now, I think people should be taxed as little as possible for only necessary programs and that overtaxation for stupid programs should be stopped.
That being said, anarchy is a fool's dream. Look at what happened in New Orleans... that wasn't a freak occurance, or a bunch of "terrible black people", that was human nature. That is what we all, black, white or anything else, are liable to revert to without social controls. Humans are flawed creatures, naturally, our governing system is also flawed, but it keeps most of us in line most of the time, which is a start.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 12:28 PM
|
#39
|
Franchise Player
|
The thing that gets me is that the Feds just want our money on principle. Even if the Federal government re-allocates half of our purported surplus, say 3 billion dollars through a carbon tax of some sorts... in reality it is just simple economics levelling. What is that 3 billion dollars going to do to create any long term solutions in the have-not provinces?
Better to let Alberta have the full 6 or 7 billion and let us get our infrastructure et al. back on our feet.
|
|
|
09-17-2005, 12:39 PM
|
#40
|
In Your MCP
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Watching Hot Dog Hans
|
Quote:
Originally posted by peter12@Sep 17 2005, 12:28 PM
The thing that gets me is that the Feds just want our money on principle. Even if the Federal government re-allocates half of our purported surplus, say 3 billion dollars through a carbon tax of some sorts... in reality it is just simple economics levelling. What is that 3 billion dollars going to do to create any long term solutions in the have-not provinces?
Better to let Alberta have the full 6 or 7 billion and let us get our infrastructure et al. back on our feet.
|
No doubt. We need a lot of that money for roads that weren't built, hospitals that were blown up, schools that were never built, and countless other projects that were mothballed in the 80's and 90's when money was tight. Just because there some big surplus now doesn't all of a sudden mean we're smoking cigars wrapped in hundred dollar bills.
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:43 AM.
|
|