Dealing with death: Religion no 'cure-all' but 'tends to help'

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

I just don't understand that there are people walking around that think a man built a giant ship and filled with every animal, the logistics alone would be impossible in the present day let alone a couple thousand years ago.

Many / most Christians do not believe in a literal interprtation of the Old Testament.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by GGG

Many / most Christians do not believe in a literal interprtation of the Old Testament.

oh they didn't like that one so they re-wrote a different version

[DuffMan]

Then they've never been to the creationist museum

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

totally see how suicide bombers are created, raised with the belief that the afterlife is waiting. They're just getting their "prize" early

Just amazing that there's never been a suicide bombing in Canada or America.

I guess the millions of Muslims are just waiting to attack all at once.

[peter12]

These threads are always awful.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Just amazing that there's never been a suicide bombing in Canada or America.

I guess the millions of Muslims are just waiting to attack all at once.

You don't think think the promise of an afterlife is a factor in the decision or brain washing of an individual, they literally think they have virgins waiting for them.

To me, flying a jet liner into a skyscraper seems a bit like a suicide attack, but that's just me

[Flames_Gimp]

whatever helps the boys deal with the trauma, good for them i guess.

[sworkhard]

The support the church provides immediately before and after the death of a loved one makes a big difference. However, the belief that you will be re-united with your family after death has been demonstrated as one of the things that prevent people from dealing with death in a healthy way. To my knowledge, being reunited with family members is not part of any major Christian theology either, but I see people reference such a belief often enough to know that it's a commonly held belief non the less.

[Mightyfire89]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

What's the joke I hear occasionally? A Christian, Jew, Muslim and Atheist walk into a bar... and they have a great time together because they are not aholes.

That's the dream, I think. Whether we ever get there depends on the individual human beings, and that's where the thing falls apart.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

You don't think think the promise of an afterlife is a factor in the decision or brain washing of an individual, they literally think they have virgins waiting for them.

To me, flying a jet liner into a skyscraper seems a bit like a suicide attack, but that's just me

You're the one who made the claim. I mean if suicide bombing was all about 72 virgins and going to heaven why aren't the Canadian and American Muslims doing it?

You said suicide bomb, not attack. If suicide bombing is all about religion then why aren't Canadians and Americans lining up to blow themselves up? Even the biggest losers of the bunch who are most extreme don't, when surely they could go to heaven and get all the virgins they want as you and the other ignorant people claim.

Answer that question and don't change the subject. Why hasn't a single Canadian or American Muslim blown themselves up in North America? If it surely means an after life and going to heaven wouldn't they be lining up to do it if that was their belief system?

[Thor]

Maybe its different for those of us who grow up pretty much away from religion, I had some childish ideas at a very early age of what God meant and it just never went on from there and I became an atheist at an early age.

For me being born so late as my mother was 35 and my 4 other siblings were much older than me all being born in a row basically within a 7 yr period, I learned early on about death with my grandparents passing.

The first death that hit me hard was my mother at the age of 23, truly before that I had never experienced that kind of grief and shock. For me, dealing with it was having a close family, a big family, and a great close circle of friends. Having never considered anything but our time on earth is finite and we return to earth from where we came just seemed totally normal to me, it wasn't a negative or positive.

I will say after losing one of my best friends in 2001, I dealt better with it, but felt more connected to the Carl Sagan idea of we are all stardust, this idea of how we are all so connected and that wonder was strongly in my mind, this was early on in my new atheist times, and early in my becoming pretty obsessed with science.

I lost my father 2 years ago, and the youngest of the sisters this last summer, for me I feel less numb and less devastated with each passing of someone I love, and the transition from pain and sadness to remembering the good times and fond memories of their lives shortens.

I'm pretty sure it would be comforting to think they are all somewhere in another place together, and of course no doubt why religion has been around for so long and so important in history.

I would never begrudge anyone who holds those beliefs of an afterlife, but for me its never been something I've believed in so I have experienced death from an early age with the idea of its a natural part of life that we must all learn to deal with and suffer through.

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

How does the rapture fit into this?
And why don't Xtians self rapture if they think the afterlife is going to be so great?

I know you're doing it just to be purposefully obnoxious, but "Xtians" doesn't make any sense or fit what you're trying to do. It'd be like turning Christmas into "Xtmas".

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

You don't think think the promise of an afterlife is a factor in the decision or brain washing of an individual, they literally think they have virgins waiting for them.

To me, flying a jet liner into a skyscraper seems a bit like a suicide attack, but that's just me

I agree, but what does that have to do with being a Christian and why are you lumping everyone together? My faith would never lead me in that direction, none of Christ's teachings would.

[psyang]

Originally Posted by sworkhard

The support the church provides immediately before and after the death of a loved one makes a big difference. However, the belief that you will be re-united with your family after death has been demonstrated as one of the things that prevent people from dealing with death in a healthy way. To my knowledge, being reunited with family members is not part of any major Christian theology either, but I see people reference such a belief often enough to know that it's a commonly held belief non the less.

I think the afterlife (at least in Christian circles) is not so well defined. There are verses in revelation which some take to describe heaven - streets of gold, jeweled gates, etc, but as Revelation is filled with imagery, how much should be taken literally, and how much metaphorically?

Also, in one of the stories where Jesus is being tested by the religious elite, he mentions that "...in the resurrection [people] neither marry nor are given in marriage...". There is an implication that things are different in the afterlife. In what ways? No idea.

I've heard some preach that God would not waste our talents and experiences we have gained here on earth, and so in Heaven we would be engaged in activities that use those talents in a fulfilling way. So I guess if you love your job here, you can expect to keep doing it for all eternity . The pastor who preached this was careful to say this was only his opinion based on what he felt were characteristics of God.

The idea of being reunited with family members comes mainly from inference: if I believe a family member that passed away is in Heaven, and I believe when I die I will go to Heaven, then I might expect that I will see them again in Heaven. There are probably other verses that imply something similar - off the top of my head, I'm thinking of the story where Jesus meets with Moses and Elijah atop a mountain after being "transfigured". Moses and Elijah never met as they lived hundreds of years apart, but here they meet "in the afterlife".

I am curious how this belief makes people not deal with death in a healthy way. In my experience, Christians go through a healthy process of sadness and grief. If anything, the idea of an afterlife provides an element of hope which isn't such a bad thing.

[DuffMan]

and on the flip side, if you aint with em, you're going to burn in hell for eternity.

[psyang]

Originally Posted by Thor

I will say after losing one of my best friends in 2001, I dealt better with it, but felt more connected to the Carl Sagan idea of we are all stardust, this idea of how we are all so connected and that wonder was strongly in my mind, this was early on in my new atheist times, and early in my becoming pretty obsessed with science.

I think this is beautiful, and perhaps a point of common ground between atheists and people of faith. From a Christian perspective, there is a similar idea: that we are all made in God's image - we are all reflections of God.

I hope, whether atheist or Christian, we can really believe in this idea of our connectedness with each other - that we can see the stranger or outcast as our brother or sister, and treat each other with love and respect accordingly.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm not religious at all any more, me and my family left the church years ago over what it did about the death of my brother.

I will admit that I am somewhat spiritual, I think its healthy at times to believe that there's a greater power out there, but I don't let it really dictate my life.

What do I think happens when we die? Well I love the romanticized image of dying and reuniting with your family members, however at times I think that sounds more like hell to me.

But if having that firm belief in heaven or paradise is enough to make a person's transition to death easier, then who am I to get in the way.

If it gives someone peace during the last moments of their lives, and helps the healing process for the family or friends with the whole "Joe is in a better place" thing, then who am I to argue or criticize. I might not believe it, but I'm certainly not going to argue with a person about it with the conclusion, "Look lady there is no heaven, and that kid of yours that you buried a couple of years ago isn't in a better place, he's in that casket 6 feet down, and he's all hair and fingernails".

[troutman]

Originally Posted by psyang

I think this is beautiful, and perhaps a point of common ground between atheists and people of faith. From a Christian perspective, there is a similar idea: that we are all made in God's image - we are all reflections of God.

I hope, whether atheist or Christian, we can really believe in this idea of our connectedness with each other - that we can see the stranger or outcast as our brother or sister, and treat each other with love and respect accordingly.

We are made of starstuff.

Or,

We are scatterlings of Africa. On a journey to the stars.

[psyang]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

and on the flip side, if you aint with em, you're going to burn in hell for eternity.

I'm glad you brought this up. I'm a Christian, and was brought up with the teaching of ECT (eternal conscious torment). Later I found there were several other Christian theologies around hell including the belief that non-believers simply cease to exist (annihilationism) and the belief that all people go to heaven (universalism). I think these widely different theologies show that the traditional idea of hell is something that many Christians wrestle with, but it also shows that hell is maybe not as clearly defined in the Bible as some may think.

It was a bit of a surprise to me that, when going through gospels and asking "what does Jesus say you have to do to go to heaven?", the answer is not "believe in Jesus", but rather it was overwhelmingly social justice issues: feed the hungry, clothe the poor, take care of the widow, don't hate your brother.

Ultimately, I rest on the idea that God is the perfect judge. He knows why we make the choices we made, and will judge accordingly. If that means that, say, an atheist goes to Heaven - so be it. That would be a happy surprise.

There is a beautiful passage in C.S.Lewis' Narnia series where Emeth, a soldier of the enemy Tash, is admitted into paradise by the Jesus figure, Aslan. He is confused, and when he asks how this is possible, Aslan replies something to the effect of "all the virtuous work you did for Tash, I count it as being done for me".

Traditionally, Christians have enjoyed a black-and-white worldview, but I think more and more we are recognizing the greys.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by psyang

Traditionally, Christians have enjoyed a black-and-white worldview, but I think more and more we are recognizing the greys.

Binary thinking afflicts more than just Christians. Just look at politics. Heck, look at sports.