Work to live or enjoy work?

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Your example doesn't sound like the most typical scenario, at least in my experience.
I find the trade off is generally between working 50 hours a week in a demanding, high stress career that pays you well, versus working less hours in a less demanding environment for less pay.
It boils down to where you get greatest satisfaction from your life, career or outside career - and the tradeoff between the benefits that more money provides versus more opportunity to enjoy it.
Few of us have the opportunity for less working hours and more pay.
I prefer to think of it as career purchasing freedom. As I get later in my working career, I choose opportunities that provide me the greatest freedom regarding when/where/how I work, understanding that the tradeoff for that freedom is likely less financial freedom.

This is it for me. When I was younger and had no kids I was willing to work more to earn more (gaining experience didn't hurt). However, I knew it wouldn't be sustainable so I decided to stay in it as long as I could before "getting out" and putting some of my priorities elsewhere. Having kids certainly played a role in that.

Lower salary aside, I'm much happier now, and if I had to do it all over again I probably wouldn't change a thing.

[Lubicon]

I suppose I'm in the live to work camp by default. Not that I love my career - I sort of fell into it and am pretty much too far into it to change now. The money is good, the hours can be long (on call 24/7). Sometimes it is very satisfying, sometimes very frustrating. I do it for my kids and for my future so I guess i sacrifice today for tomorrow in a lot of ways. I regret that to some extent but hopefully there will be a reward at the end of it all.

That said, I did see some of the other side recently due to the downturn in the economy. Reduced hours to go along with a pretty significant pay cut. I do admit the extra time off was fantastic but it sure put a squeeze on the household finances.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Matata

Menial jobs are a part of everyone's journey. Fulfilling work isn't found only in glamourous jobs, it comes from finding artfulness in what you do and how you are treated.

I think the idea that poor people can't improve their lot in life is condescending garbage. Life is tough and it's very easy to get stuck in an ugly cycle, but there is always a path to something better.

All humans contain tremendous potential for self actualization and being harvesters of change. I know the playing field is very far from even and their isn't room for everyone in the stars. But if Elon Musk or Bill gates can revolutionize the world with their ideas, surely you can do better than "job I hate for money".

There's a reason that there are only a handful of guys like Musk and Gates.

These threads always go the same way. People who love their jobs come in here and act incredulous that anyone can function in the world that doesn't have their dream job. It's easy to say if you have your dream job. Hell, some people probably have no idea what a dream job is, let alone the resources to make it happen.

It is so much more complicated than to just say "try hard and sacrifice". The condescending part is acting like people who work jobs they don't love have no ambition and have settled in life.

I hope no one is stuck in a job they hate and if they are, I hope it's for a good reason. But I'm not gonna condescend to them and say they just need to pull up their boot straps and make it happen.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by troutman

The average work hours per week in my profession is 50. Some lawyers downtown must be doing 60+ hours. One lawyer works so much that his wife and children have to make appointments to see him on the weekend. The pressure to make billable hour targets can be immense. Big clients, big files, long hours. Depression and substance abuse is rampant.

I decided to open my own shop in the suburbs - I work 35-40 hours per week, never on evenings and weekends. This worked well for me so that I had plenty of time to spend with my children. Now they are older and I have more times for hobbies and volunteering.

There are different stresses in running your own office and being responsible for employing a small staff and finding enough work. Probably I could make more $ downtown, but the trade-off is not worth it to me.

Successfully Juggling Work and Family: Tips for Lawyers

https://www.cba.org/Publications-Res...y-Tips-for-Law

Pretty much the same boat as me.

I didnt get into Tax Accounting for the fame, glamour and the adulation of women.

It was a cop-out. I'm really good at it and eventually became my own boss, which had always been the goal.

I'm in both camps somewhat. I work to live because, well, we all do at some level, but being self-employed also comes with a certain level of responsibility as well.

That being said, we all do what we have to do in order to live our lives. I know lots of people who work jobs that they hate, it has to pay off somewhere and they're grown-ups, they can make their own determination about whether its worth it or not.

There are days when I love my work and there are days I hate my work with a passion. I'm sure everyone is similar.

[TheSutterDynasty]

How about the more hypothetical question?

It's hard to generalize these questions without a specific job to reference to, but we'll use % for "happiness level" with the jobs.

A job you're 75% happy with (you like what you do and enjoy work while you're there [but still live for the weekend], but there are jobs out there you'd enjoy more) and work 40 hours a week for and make "comfortable" money.

Or

A job you're ~40% happy with (you are still doing what you enjoy to a lesser extent, but the people you work with are somewhat difficult and the job is much less 'glamorous') and work 40 hours a week but make 1.5x the money (ie if first job was $50k / year, you make $75k / year).

Interested on hearing responses.

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by dobbles

So where are we going to find all these people that have a deep rooted desire to work fast food and have a crappy manager and low pay? Or want to work on a factory floor making jeans for a dollar a day in Asia? Or change adult diapers at a nursing home all day?

I find this concept as unrealistic as the one where poor people need to work hard to find a good paying job... The reality of our world is that most people work menial boring jobs for not much money. There are only so many people that can be pro athletes or radio DJs or run an art gallery. The jobs people desire are few and far between.

There's nothing wrong with menial jobs being a stepping stone in someone's life. I have a friend who use to work at McDonalds. After a number of years she saved enough to buy a food truck. It was very successful. Now she has a reasturant, catering business and was recently on Chopped Canada. She has the same smile on her face now as she did when she worked at McDonalds. Oh, and her manager couldn't have that bad as she ended up marrying him.

People who think they are stuck in menial jobs are really just stuck in there own negative head space. Life is what you make of it.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

There's nothing wrong with menial jobs being a stepping stone in someone's life. I have a friend who use to work at McDonalds. After a number of years she saved enough to buy a food truck. It was very successful. Now she has a reasturant, catering business and was recently on Chopped Canada. She has the same smile on her face now as she did when she worked at McDonalds. Oh, and her manager couldn't have that bad as she ended up marrying him.

People who think they are stuck in menial jobs are really just stuck in there own negative head space. Life is what you make of it.

I think you are somewhat missing the point and somewhat projecting.

Nowhere did I mean to imply there is anything wrong with jobs like fast food. Most of my family tree is unskilled laborers. But the initial point was enjoying ones work. I doubt you would find very many people that work in fast food enjoy their work or picked that job because thats what they dreamed of doing when they were little.

Furthermore, the larger point I was making about both conversations is not that people can't use menial jobs as stepping stones or temporary gigs, but that in our current economy it requires a plethora of those jobs exist. So if we all had our dream job who is left to flip the burgers? And to the other point, if everyone were to pull themselves up by the bootstraps who is left to flip the burgers?

[zukes]

I enjoy what I do, and am paid nicely for what I do. But, if I didn't have to work, you would find me nowhere near here.

I work only because I have to. Unless someone is going to pay me to sit around and drink beer, watch and play sports, spend time with the wife and kids and go on too many vacations, then I would never work another day in my life.

For me, I make my own hours for the most part. When I get really busy it is usually because of my choosing, but not always. I work for an independent insurance claims company, as a property adjuster mostly, so when something like the Calgary flood or the fire in Fort McMurray happens I am asked to go as I am on our company Catastrophe team. It is not mandatory, but that is when I make an obscene amount of money, and get to help people in need at the same time so I usually go. The only time it's not of my choosing is when our area gets affected, usually by water, then it gets crazy busy whether you like it or not.

During slow times like now, you'll find me working from home a lot, blowing off one or two days at 11:00 and golfing, or working minimal hours, like 9:00-2:00 (which reminds me, why am I still working?). Luckily for me, my job is billable hours and I am very efficient.

I guess generally I would rather work the minimum amount to pay for what I need and a little of what I want and still have time to do stuff rather than bust my ass doing 50 hour weeks to get ahead and stop early. My job tends to have people work well into retirement age for this reason, so I may be around for a while.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

How about the more hypothetical question?

It's hard to generalize these questions without a specific job to reference to, but we'll use % for "happiness level" with the jobs.

A job you're 75% happy with (you like what you do and enjoy work while you're there [but still live for the weekend], but there are jobs out there you'd enjoy more) and work 40 hours a week for and make "comfortable" money.

Or

A job you're ~40% happy with (you are still doing what you enjoy to a lesser extent, but the people you work with are somewhat difficult and the job is much less 'glamorous') and work 40 hours a week but make 1.5x the money (ie if first job was $50k / year, you make $75k / year).

Interested on hearing responses.

Personally I take the former. But that's mostly because I grew up in a very poor household and my standard of living is already magnitudes better than I am accustomed to. So because I feel like I am already on the gravy train, I have no intentions of climbing the corporate ladder and having more responsibility and work commitment for some extra cash. I make enough money to feel like I can provide a decent life for my family, so I choose to keep as much of my time as possible so that I can enjoy it with them.

[Robo]

Definitely work to live for me, it will never get in the way of spending time with my wife and kids

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by dobbles

Furthermore, the larger point I was making about both conversations is not that people can't use menial jobs as stepping stones or temporary gigs, but that in our current economy it requires a plethora of those jobs exist. So if we all had our dream job who is left to flip the burgers? And to the other point, if everyone were to pull themselves up by the bootstraps who is left to flip the burgers?

Do you have any stats on the percentage of jobs, both global and domestic, are considered menial? You got me thinking and I am very curious. In my small city, I would think its a small number. Obviously global manufacturing and food production changes that, but I wonder. I'm not an economist, but I've often wondered if the world needs poor people. Okay, now I'm getting way off topic.

My point is just that everyone needs to start somewhere and not everyone is going to pull themselves up by the bootstraps at the same time leaving no one available for entry level jobs. I've worked some crappy jobs in my life, but I did them well and got along with my co-workers. I have little sympathy for millennials complaining about their jobs.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

Do you have any stats on the percentage of jobs, both global and domestic, are considered menial? You got me thinking and I am very curious. In my small city, I would think its a small number. Obviously global manufacturing and food production changes that, but I wonder. I'm not an economist, but I've often wondered if the world needs poor people. Okay, now I'm getting way off topic.

My point is just that everyone needs to start somewhere and not everyone is going to pull themselves up by the bootstraps at the same time leaving no one available for entry level jobs. I've worked some crappy jobs in my life, but I did them well and got along with my co-workers. I have little sympathy for millennials complaining about their jobs.

Nobody has even mentioned millennials in this thread, let alone millennials complaining about their jobs. You're living in a bubble if you think low income jobs are only worked by teenagers making some pocket money.

[Buff]

I work to live.

I despise some people who live to work. A former co-worker was thinking about work 24/7. You'd see emails come in from him at all hours of the day and night. And not just doing emails, but emailing about something that he was just working on at that moment. The dude was married to his work and his wife was just a possession that he acquired because it was a societal norm to get married and have kids. He is divorced, btw.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Buff

I despise some people who live to work. A former co-worker was thinking about work 24/7. You'd see emails come in from him at all hours of the day and night. And not just doing emails, but emailing about something that he was just working on at that moment. The dude was married to his work and his wife was just a possession that he acquired because it was a societal norm to get married and have kids. He is divorced, btw.

I don't despise work-jerks. If that's how they want to spend their lives, who am I to criticize? However, when someone like that gets into a management position and expects others to adopt their approach to work, that's a problem.

Also, work-jerks should never have kids. I knew a woman like that who never spent any time with her family. When the divorce came, her husband wanted primary custody of the kids, but she wouldn't have it - what would people think? Now the kids are looked after by iPads when it's her week with the kids. Sad.

[Hack&Lube]

I live for work... so that I can live worry-free later.

There's a balance here. The two can be the same thing but I definitely work 60-80 hours a week in 4 different companies and will continue doing so for another 10 years probably... Or at least the plan is to do this until I'm successful enough to "retire" and start enjoying life.

[EldrickOnIce]

It's always about opportunity, and then balance.
I see career as a means to an end; to my wife career is critical. It's basically gone full circle. I was blessed with opportunity to provide nicely for us while she spent 10 years in university completing her doctoral degree. Armed with that, and as an extremely high achiever, she has smashed any glass ceiling that may have existed in her chosen career. And keeps climbing. And she loves it. She travels internationally for work approximately 40% of the time (though almost never on weekends), and to be honest that works out very well for all of us. This allowed me to dial my career way back (and let's not kid ourselves - I could do without working entirely). My 9 year old daughter and I enjoy a fantastic relationship that might be less likely in more conventional circumstances, and I do enjoy my own time (as well as frequent reunions after a bit of time away from momma).
But this had way more to do with privilege granted me, by virtue of a family with the means to entirely fund education, and a demand that I do so. It was my ultimately choice to make something of that opportunity, but that choice would not have been on the table without first enjoying that privilege. Pulling one's self up by the bootstraps is mostly fallacy - or is a lifelong struggle at best, and improving one's lot in life is generally only incremental without working yourself half to death in the process.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I live for work... so that I can live worry-free later.

There's a balance here. The two can be the same thing but I definitely work 60-80 hours a week in 4 different companies and will continue doing so for another 10 years probably... Or at least the plan is to do this until I'm successful enough to "retire" and start enjoying life.

That strategy seems like such a gamble though. You could die long before then, or have illnesses that prevent you from travelling or exercising or whatever you intend to do. And once you "retire" you will then get bored and want to keep doing something for work anyway. I get that it is nice to have options later in life, but you only get one chance, and missing your 30's and 40's to bank it for later just doesn't compute for me. And I'm a saver.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I live for work... so that I can live worry-free later.

There's a balance here. The two can be the same thing but I definitely work 60-80 hours a week in 4 different companies and will continue doing so for another 10 years probably... Or at least the plan is to do this until I'm successful enough to "retire" and start enjoying life.

This is absolutely crazy to me. By the time you retire work is ingrained in you and you will probably just be bored, no? Besides, why spend your prime physical years working when you can be traveling, playing sports, trying new things, etc?

I work 35-40 hours a week and depending on circumstance in a few years I want to cut back to 4 days per week (30-35 hours). At 40 hours I feel there's barely enough time to do what I want during the week (gym, run, dog, friends, sports). Weekends are of course perfect.

This is of course a huge privilege that not a lot of people get to enjoy. But some may have that opportunity and yet choose 60-80 hour work weeks? What is it you do?

[Finger Cookin]

Endure existence because it beats the unknown.

[Zarley]

I probably put in 50 - 60 hours per week on average but I'm lucky to really enjoy what I do so it's not a problem.