Francis Article On Lack of Toughness

[shermanator]

I'm not buying the narrative here. I see a player that skipped camp in a contract dispute and has been half-assing his play for the majority of the year outside of a hot streak after his finger injury. Maybe I've just watched him attempt to go 1 on 3 followed by a giveaway a few too many times this year to believe it.

Every star player gets rough treatment now. Players don't need to be taking stupid retaliation penalties every time Johnny takes a hack.

[Par]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Okay, I'm not sure how that contradicts my original post.

Your original post said You said that it is goon vs goon. What I am saying is that you need a goon line to send a message, you can use your, top players by playing tough.

[Erick Estrada]

This team already leads the league in penalties. Gooning things up would simply have them spending more time on the penalty kill than they already are. Ultimately it's on the officials to call the penalties they are supposed to rather than try and manage games.

[Par]

Originally Posted by shermanator

I'm not buying the narrative here. I see a player that skipped camp in a contract dispute and has been half-assing his play for the majority of the year outside of a hot streak after his finger injury. Maybe I've just watched him attempt to go 1 on 3 followed by a giveaway a few too many times this year to believe it.

Every star player gets rough treatment now. Players don't need to be taking stupid retaliation penalties every time Johnny takes a hack.

The half-assing, can be said about several players on this team, not just Johnny.

Players don't need to be taking "stupid retaliation penalties every time Johnny takes a hack" but they can play the other team top line hard and do a little bit of nastiness.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

What, are you saying? To put out, a goon line against the, other team's top players?

They'd love to skate, circles around, them.

I think you're missing the point. It's about team toughness.

Case in point: it wasn't "goons" that were working on Johnny in the Minnesota game. It was Staal and Suter.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I think you're missing the point. It's about team toughness.

Case in point: it wasn't "goons" that were working on Johnny in the Minnesota game. It was Staal and Suter.

Ok, we have can get more tough guys like Tkachuk, I'm all for it.

But goons like McGrattan? They don't belong in the league anymore. You can't afford to have them on the ice at any time of the game.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by Par

The half-assing, can be said about several players on this team, not just Johnny.

Players don't need to be taking "stupid retaliation penalties every time Johnny takes a hack" but they can play the other team top line hard and do a little bit of nastiness.

Agreed on the first point, but I don't see articles being written about the other players making excuses for their poor play.

[Erick Estrada]

IMO there is a general lack of fire and cohesion in the locker room this season. When the team is going through the motions most of the time you are going to see the lack of push back when things get tough. Maybe if the team goes on a good run and feels better about themselves we will see more passion and fire which will result in more of a galvanized team. I don't think this team needs tougher players though. They just need more passion in their play.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

What are the repercussions? The only ones who are going to fight your goon are the other teams' goon.

Hey Staal, don't slash Johnny, or McGrattan is going to have to fight Kurtis Gabriel.

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Ok, we have can get more tough guys like Tkachuk, I'm all for it.

But goons like McGrattan? They don't belong in the league anymore. You can't afford to have them on the ice at any time of the game.

Where did McGrattan say that a goon was needed to have team toughness.

He actually agreed with you that the role of an "enforcer" is dead in the new NHL.

“Yes, the enforcer and that element is gone from the game, but sticking up for each other and being a team is crucial for morale – it goes so far in the dressing room,” said McGrattan, 35, from his home in Nottingham, England, where he’s rounding out his career in the Elite Ice Hockey League.

His point is valid - the team does not stand up for one another and they haven't for a couple seasons now.

Players get hit from behind, hit hard, slashed, etc and the reaction is just "Ho, Hum nothing we can do about that."

Would have been nice to see the team actually get fired up and show some emotion after that hit, instead they went about their business like nothing happened.

Monahan, Brouwer, Tkachuk, Bouma, Ferland, etc are all big enough guys that they can stand up for a teammate, shouldn't just be Engelland as they only guy showing emotion or standing up for teammates.

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

I have a crazy idea...How about the refs do their job and call penalties?

This idea s crazy enough, it just might work

[Leeman4Gilmour]

McGrattan's perspective clearly has some bias. But how can one argue? Hartley's Vancouver brawl created instant cohesion amongst that group. It was clear as day.

[FanIn80]

I think the article is only half-right. Yes it's important to show up when when your skilled guys get run over, but you do actually need to win some of those dances if it's going to have any effect.

Right now, there are no real ramifications for running over Johnny, but if the only ramification is that you get to run over Johnny and then kick someone else's ass immediately afterward, then what kind of deterrent is that?

This is why Lucic was such a HUGE add for Edmonton in the off-season. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out why everyone was focused on whether or not Lucic would be able to keep up with McDavid. He doesn't have to keep up with McDavid. He just has to keep up with whomever takes a run at McDavid. The number of players in the game today that can inflict a Lucic-level of punishment on someone, while also having a Lucic-level of skill is incredibly small. We don't have a single one of them in our entire system, and I can't even think of one that would be readily available if we went looking either.

Our most obvious holes are a top-six F, a #4D and a starting G. These are well-known, but if there's one thing I've learned this season, it's that a "Lucic-clone" is right up there too.

[Calgary4LIfe]

One thing I will never understand is people getting mad when there is a huge but clean hit, which draws the attention of the opposing players on the ice resulting in a fight.

I think that at any time - clean or dirty - your teammate gets rocked, there should be a response. What people seem to so easily disregard is that the big hit might have been clean and 100‰ within the rules, but it was still a violent altercation. A huge, clean hit still has the intent to injure, even if it was perfectly clean.

Looking back at that fabled night in Vancouver, it changed both the Flames and the Canucks. It brought the Flames together and was a league-wide statement that the Flames could no longer be pushed around.

This season, almost every game is a statement game as well showing the league that the Flames can definitely be pushed around.

Does anyone believe that Boudreau would have devised a game plan centered around slashing Gaudreau if the Flames were a bit nastier? It wouldn't be worth the risk of retribution for a non-playoff game vs a non-divisional opponent.

I really do believe that the Flames being in a rut is in part due to the lack of swagger out there.

I would like to add one thing here - though he is unfairly a whipping boy on these forums, and every one feels he should be nowhere near Johnny, Chiasson was one of the few players on this team that actually dropped the gloves in support of a teammate.

I really loved the signing when it happened, but Brouwer needs to step it up. He started off decently enough, but for most of the season he has become a total non-factor. Ferland, Bouma, Hathaway, Brouwer, Tkachuk - this shouldn't be the softest forward group in the league, but they are.

You don't need a good, but as a team they need to actually stick-up for one another. This team has very little pushbutton, and it is glaring.

I hate to say it, but I almost prefer the Flames protect Bouma over Brouwer - at least Bouma went after Kesler one game. Brouwer is really sticking out to me right now. He isn't producing, and he is not providing any sort of a physical presence. He has been extremely disappointing to me lately.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Monahan, Brouwer, Tkachuk, Bouma, Ferland, etc are all big enough guys that they can stand up for a teammate, shouldn't just be Engelland as they only guy showing emotion or standing up for teammates.

Yup.

When was the last game where we said "Wow, Brouwer is totally in the face of ___" or "Bouma is clearly in the head of ____"

Hathaway / Tkachuk have been the only ones that are consistently in the other team's business and Engelland has been our only true stick-up-for-teammates guy.

[EldrickOnIce]

I sometimes question how mentally tough they are.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I think the article is only half-right. Yes it's important to show up when when your skilled guys get run over, but you do actually need to win some of those dances if it's going to have any effect.

Right now, there are no real ramifications for running over Johnny, but if the only ramification is that you get to run over Johnny and then kick someone else's ass immediately afterward, then what kind of deterrent is that?

This is why Lucic was such a HUGE add for Edmonton in the off-season. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out why everyone was focused on whether or not Lucic would be able to keep up with McDavid. He doesn't have to keep up with McDavid. He just has to keep up with whomever takes a run at McDavid. The number of players in the game today that can inflict a Lucic-level of punishment on someone, while also having a Lucic-level of skill is incredibly small. We don't have a single one of them in our entire system, and I can't even think of one that would be readily available if we went looking either.

Our most obvious holes are a top-six F, a #4D and a starting G. These are well-known, but if there's one thing I've learned this season, it's that a "Lucic-clone" is right up there too.

I don't think the major benefit is to take a run at the guy who slashed Johnny. Rather, the benefit is to help keep Johnny's head in the game.

You can see how the slashes definitely get Johnny out of the zone multiple times a game. That means he's lost concentration, and that hurts our club. As you said, McDavid skates around out there like he doesn't give an S because teams are deterred from attacking him in that way.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

No, but next time the offending player is on-ice, send Ferland or hathaway to kick the #### out of him. Yes, they'd take an instigator penalty, but the message must be sent consistently - don't mess with our finesse players.

No kidding. It is worth the 2 minute penalty. Break their noses.

[PepsiFree]

I don't see how this is even a question.

The Flames are weak when it comes to sticking up for themselves and for others. No push back. Nothing fierce to point at.

It's not about goons. That's pointless. It's about a man to man toughness. That doesn't mean taking a retaliatory penalty, but it sure means the risk of taking one goes up. Don't let players take advantage of guys on your team, and if you see it, react.

It's also a personal responsibility thing. Look at Tkachuk. Guys hate him, but already you're getting into situations where as frustrated as he makes teams, nobody is going too far with it, because they know he'll give it back and he won't be careful or nice about it. He's 19, and the toughest and roughest individual on the roster (you could make a case for Engelland, true).

This is on the team, but it's also on Johnny. He can't be Tkachuk, but he's got to learn to stick up for himself. No more complaining and whining to the refs. If guys get chippy with you, get chippy with them. If guys use their stick, use yours. He's small and a skill guy, but that doesn't mean he should just wait around for everyone else to fix this problem for him.

[Igottago]

Enforcers are not needed, but team toughness is. The Flames are pretty easy to walk all over in that regard. You know your star player is also one of the smallest guys in the league -- get in there and make sure other teams aren't taking liberties on him.

[Matty81]

I think he's right for a change. Flames get bullied this year and it is more embarassing than just losing. Imagine what it must feel like in the room.