The Gilmour trade - 25 years later

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Dion

I am old! Stop reminding me!

Lots of masochists around her, eh.

[Sylvanfan]

Looking back you can see that Fletcher set Risebrough up like a Clay Pidgeon.

He knew he was going to Toronto, and leaving the Flames to his apprentice...tells apprentice to hardline Gilmour...knowing he will react emotionally...than bludgeon apprentice in a trade that completely turned both franchises fortunes for the next 5-7 years.

The Flames likely were doomed after the 94 lockout either way as it was becoming apparent that they were no longer going to be able to match the dollar figures for their really good players like Al MacInnis. But that trade certainly accelerated them down the path to doom. Had they got anything of value in return, they could have at least kept trading that for future hope...that pile of crap exploded the minute it left Toronto.

[CliffFletcher]

People talk about how disappointing Leeman was, but the other big disappointment was Godynuk. The thinking was that he could develop into a very good d-man, younger and better than Macoun. Of course, nothing of the sort happened.

Petit had tremendous potential that was never realized. Drafted 11th OA. Big, good skater, great shot. Saw him absolutely destroy a young Lindros with a bodycheck early in his stint with the Flames. But it should have been clear by the time of this trade that he never going to put it all together.

Gilmour vs Leeman: Flames lose
Godynuk vs Macoun: Flames lose
Petit vs Nattress: Flames lose
Wamsley vs Reese: Flames lose
Manderville vs Berube: Draw

The Flames had dressing room problems and the trade basically shipped one whole clique out of town. But why move all of those guys, and why move than all in one deal? Such an amateur move by a GM.

[madmike]

Furious then and still angry now. It was hard to be a Flames fan and watch a tight-fisted ownership completely dismantle what was still a very good team.

[cracher]

Can someone bump this in another 40 years? I think some dementia may take the sting out of this trade. I remember this well; I saved up from a flyer route for ages to purchase a killer (noun and adjective) jersey. I had this jersey for 2 months before the trade.

So what did happen to all those players we got back? Leeman got us Skrudland, who then left as a UFA. What about the others? Any draft picks acquired that can be traced to any notable players?

[JiriHrdina]

Skrudland didn't leave as a free agent...was claimed via expansion
Same with Godynuk
Berube was dealt for a late pick that didn't yield anything
Reese was traded for a conditional pick
Petit I think left for nothing

So the end result was squat.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

People talk about how disappointing Leeman was, but the other big disappointment was Godynuk. The thinking was that he could develop into a very good d-man, younger and better than Macoun. Of course, nothing of the sort happened.

Petit had tremendous potential that was never realized. Drafted 11th OA. Big, good skater, great shot. Saw him absolutely destroy a young Lindros with a bodycheck early in his stint with the Flames. But it should have been clear by the time of this trade that he never going to put it all together.

Gilmour vs Leeman: Flames lose
Godynuk vs Macoun: Flames lose
Petit vs Nattress: Flames lose
Wamsley vs Reese: Flames lose
Manderville vs Berube: Draw

The Flames had dressing room problems and the trade basically shipped one whole clique out of town. But why move all of those guys, and why move than all in one deal? Such an amateur move by a GM.

This sums it up really well. What else could you expect when you trade 5 players from one of the best teams in the league for 5 from one of the worst. Even the most optimistic review of the trade was that Toronto got the best two players in the trade in Gilmour and Macoun
Apart from the absolute fleecing of the Flames, one of the things that really brought home to me how Leaf fans (and a lot of eastern media) overestimate the abilities of Leaf players, was the the initial reaction of a lot of Toronto fans who were convincedthat Leeman was a better player than Gilmour (I happened to be in Toronto at the time).

Remember Harry Neale saying Michel Petit had "...all the tools, but no toolbox"?

[Snuffleupagus]

Remember it like yesterday, I was at a party in Saskatchewan of all places getting drunk in a hot-tub enjoying the view when some hick oiler fan broke the news to a mostly oiler fan crowd. when I realized the news was true I was so depressed even the view didn't look all that great anymore. Brutal trade!

Having said that I still think the Brett Hull trade was just as bad or maybe even worst for the team with the timing of Loob going back to Sweden after the next season. would have loved to have the 300+ goals Hull had the next 5 seasons with the Flames instead of with the Blues.

[Iniggywetrust]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

Apart from the absolute fleecing of the Flames, one of the things that really brought home to me how Leaf fans (and a lot of eastern media) overestimate the abilities of Leaf players, was the the initial reaction of a lot of Toronto fans who were convincedthat Leeman was a better player than Gilmour (I happened to be in Toronto at the time).

Same thing happened during the Phaneuf trade. I remember reading an article from Bob Mackenzie saying that, statistically, Ian white was the best player in the trade.

[dissentowner]

I hated Leeman before but after reading what he said it just makes me boil all over again.

[Pellanor]

I was neighbors with Gilmour and went to school (1st grade) with his daughter. I was sad to see them move.

My Dad used to sit on the lawn drinking beer in the summer, watching Gilmore rollerblade laps around the neighborhood. They chatted about some of the stuff he was going through with Risebrough. Sounds like that was one of the toughest times in his career.

[Snuffleupagus]

I can totally believe the Gilmore/Risebrough problems, Risebrough had a special gift to rub people the wrong way.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I can totally believe the Gilmore/Risebrough problems, Risebrough had a special gift to rub people the wrong way.

Yeah, but allegedly so did Gilmour. At least Risebrough wasn't allegedly rubbing 14 year olds.

[FlamesAddiction]

It would have been bad even if Leeman managed to perform as he did in Toronto, but he fell right off the cliff immediately after the trade. I know there are lots of rumours about him battling personal issues and it affected his play. Throwing in Macoun was just insult to injury.

The thing I remember most about it was my Oiler-fan friends were celebrating like it was 1999. I kept trying to justify it by telling myself that Godynyuk was going to be a star.

Gilmour really made it difficult to get full value however. He handcuffed the team and I never forgave him for that.

[FlamesFan68]

Probably the worst trade in NHL history. I can't even think of one that comes close to it. Even in the Gretzky trade it was over money and they got some good young players back from LA. The worst trade ever. I would argue, Gilmour was the heart and soul of the Flames, and pushed the Flames over that hump to with the Stanley in 89'. I don't blame Fletcher at all, it fell completely on Risebrough and the owners, and set the Flames back for decades.

[madmike]

Originally Posted by FlamesFan68

Probably the worst trade in NHL history. I can't even think of one that comes close to it. Even in the Gretzky trade it was over money and they got some good young players back from LA. The worst trade ever. I would argue, Gilmour was the heart and soul of the Flames, and pushed the Flames over that hump to with the Stanley in 89'. I don't blame Fletcher at all, it fell completely on Risebrough and the owners, and set the Flames back for decades.

It's up there. But Luongo and Jokinen for Parrish and Kvasha is still likely worse, if only because Luongo and Jokinen were young players and had a lot of prime years left in them.

[Resolute 14]

Cam Neely and a first round pick for Barry Pederson is still the flag bearer, imnsho.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Really, either of the Esposito trades were worse.

Martin wasn't terrible, but Esposito, Hodge and Stanfield for him initially to the Bruins?

And then Park and Ratelle for him was terrible for the Rangers.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Looking back you can see that Fletcher set Risebrough up like a Clay Pidgeon.

He knew he was going to Toronto, and leaving the Flames to his apprentice...tells apprentice to hardline Gilmour...knowing he will react emotionally...than bludgeon apprentice in a trade that completely turned both franchises fortunes for the next 5-7 years.

Yup, though the Flames did a great deal of damage themselves, separate from Fletcher's scheming. In particular, by corrupting the arbitration process. Risebrough was gladhanding the arbitrator prior to the hearing, and Ziegler wrote a letter to him. The Flames and NHL were lucky that Eagleson was the NHLPA head at the time, because a real union leader would have nailed both with lawsuits over that collusion. As it was, it only left Gilmour with deep seated bitterness and was probably the entire reason why he walked off the team.

The Flames likely were doomed after the 94 lockout either way as it was becoming apparent that they were no longer going to be able to match the dollar figures for their really good players like Al MacInnis. But that trade certainly accelerated them down the path to doom. Had they got anything of value in return, they could have at least kept trading that for future hope...that pile of crap exploded the minute it left Toronto.

Yup. On top of the problems caused by the owners inability/unwillingness to pay for the rising costs of owning an NHL team, the Flames were also slowly falling apart due to age and retirement (McDonald and Loob especially), and the drafting had turned to crap. Between 1986 and 1991, Fletcher drafted only two impact players: Fleury (who was a fluke, really) and Robert Reichel. Other than that, the only guys we picked who had any kind of career was role players - McCarthy, Kruse, Manderville, Matteau, Glynn.

[automaton 3]

This trade still hurts.

Why didn't someone, anyone in the Flames office stand up and say "whoa stop, this is madness!"

It was bad enough more or less giving Gilmour away, but to also throw in Macoun was simply insult to injury.