Pearl Harbor

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

There is a WWII battleship docked in LA as a museum now. I visited the museum several times, and an old gnarly vet who served on the ship said that it had only 6 inches of total clearance going thru the canal.

This is the USS Iowa, the biggest battleship every constructed. Apparently it's got the same hull design as the carriers.

That vet may or may not have been correct. Visiting that ship is amaze balls though.

Not to be picky but the Yamata class was a monster compared to the Iowa.

With nearly 74,000 tons of displacement versus 51,000 the Yamata had a length of 839 feet versus the Iowa's 861 feet and the Yamata had a beam of about 110 feet versus 127 for the Iowa.

So your right on one side, in terms of physical dimensions the Iowa was bigger, however the Yamata was far heavier due to its 16 inch armor versus the Iowa's 12.1 inches of armor. in terms of sheer firepower the Yamata had the biggest guns of its generation with 18 inch guns with an effective range of over 26 miles, the Iowa had 16 inch guns with a range of about 23 miles.

The American design philsophy of their battleships was sharply different as they wanted their battleships to be able to keep up with carrier battlegroups, whereas the Japanese almost saw their battleships as a ship to build battlegroups around. The Iowa was incredibly fast for a ship of its size and draft with a top speed of 35 knots, the Yamata was a lot slower at a top speed of 26 knots.

Both ships dwarfed and outgunned the German's Bismark who had 8 15 inch guns a speed of 30 knots a 12 inch armor belt. As big as the bismark was the Japanese and American battleships completely outclassed it.

[chubeyr1]

Love this thread!

Pearl Harbor was a lesson on communication and technology. Could of been stopped dead in its tracks.

9/11 similar!

Maybe not similar, but lack of communication was a big factor.

If the 3 carriers were at pearl harbor at the time the war would of been different, many more lives lost. Japan was never gonna win this war though.

The war forced the American to untap their industry, an industry that was not under attack and was so far away. They woke a sleeping giant. That war was over before it started.

Had Japan not attacked pearl harbor history would be very interesting.

Why did Japan ever choose the Germans as an ally? Why did Russia?

History is filled with what ifs.

[CaptainCrunch]

The industrial might, might not have mattered if Japan had smashed the american carriers at Pearl. Ultimately if that last line of defense had been crushed Japan would have logically moved to take Hawaii in a massive amphibious assault before America could have re-enforced.

If they had entrenched Hawaii they would have re-enforced with land based planes and bombers and then they could have threatened the American Pacific coast with bombardment from their battleships.

Moral in America would have been completely shattered and America probably would have negotiated a separate peace with Japan in exchange for the return of Hawaii as a disarmed state.

Japan then would have been content to fold backwards and go after the abandoned fortress islands like Midway which they would have taken because of America's inability to re-enforce them.

The alliance between Japan and Germany made a lot of conventional sense. They hoped that if they split American interests in case of war that they would have been able to grind out American re-enforcements. I firmly believe though that Hitler blundered with a pre-emptive declaration of war against America.

The Russian/German non-aggression pact made a lot more sense. Basically Stalin knew that Hitler would eventually come, but his armed forces was a mess due to his great purge in 1937-38 which accounted for a lot of his senior officers with Great War experience being executed or sent to the Gulags to count trees.

Because of this his army was disorganized and badly under equipt. He hoped that he would get time to organize a proper defense of his Western Front. Stalin was also praying that Japan wouldn't invade his Eastern borders because he started sending a lot of his hardier eastern formations out West to block the germans.

Fortunately for the Russian's Richard Sorge who was a Russian Spy in Japan provided Stalin with two pieces of key information 1) that the German's were certainly going to attack Russia but didn't know the time line 2) that the Japanese invasion of Russia was not happening anytime soon, so Stalin was able to move about 20 divisions to his Western Front which eventually formed the core of his push to Berlin.

When Germany invaded Stalin was taken completely by surprise, the German troops passed Russian Trains heading to Germany with loads of grain and fuel.

[GirlySports]

Was an attack on the US west coast even feasible (assuming that Hawaii had fallen first), and what would have been the objective?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Was an attack on the US west coast even feasible (assuming that Hawaii had fallen first), and what would have been the objective?

With a Hawaii under Japanese Control it would have made a natural refueling and re-arming station for the Japanese Navy.

Japan was working on a long range bomber named the G10N a four engine heavy plane that was designed to hit the US West Coast, it was cancelled in 1944 when Japan's fortunes were turning towards defeat.

An attack on the West Coast was never meant to be a prelude to an invasion, the Japanese knew that they would never succeed in that. The plan was to basically demoralize the American's to the point of surrender, which meant a roving fleet of battleships and aircraft carriers bombing and destroying key civilian and military targets up and down the coast, I would assume that Vancouver would have taken a pounding as well.

I tend to think that the Japanese also thought that if they could take the American's out of the war then they could focus on Australia as a priority target.

[Doodlebug]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Not to be picky but the Yamata class was a monster compared to the Iowa.

With nearly 74,000 tons of displacement versus 51,000 the Yamata had a length of 839 feet versus the Iowa's 861 feet and the Yamata had a beam of about 110 feet versus 127 for the Iowa.

So your right on one side, in terms of physical dimensions the Iowa was bigger, however the Yamata was far heavier due to its 16 inch armor versus the Iowa's 12.1 inches of armor. in terms of sheer firepower the Yamata had the biggest guns of its generation with 18 inch guns with an effective range of over 26 miles, the Iowa had 16 inch guns with a range of about 23 miles.

The American design philsophy of their battleships was sharply different as they wanted their battleships to be able to keep up with carrier battlegroups, whereas the Japanese almost saw their battleships as a ship to build battlegroups around. The Iowa was incredibly fast for a ship of its size and draft with a top speed of 35 knots, the Yamata was a lot slower at a top speed of 26 knots.

Both ships dwarfed and outgunned the German's Bismark who had 8 15 inch guns a speed of 30 knots a 12 inch armor belt. As big as the bismark was the Japanese and American battleships completely outclassed it.

The 3 Yamato Class Battleships had the biggest Naval guns ever mounted, not just of that generation.

[CaptainCrunch]

I thought I'd add on the timeline since I'm at home sick today

3:42 AM The Minesweeper Condor spots a periscope in the entrance to Pearl. It sends a flash message to the Destroyer Ward, sighted submerged submarine heading east at 9 knots

06:10 the Japanese carriers turn into the wind and launch the first wave of 183 fighters, bombers and Torpedo bombers

06:45 The Ward fires on and sinks the suspected Japanese submarine in the first shots of the new war

07:15 Admiral Kimmel receives the Wards report on the submarine and disregards it as its unconfirmed.

07:20 The Radar station at Opana sends a report to Fort Shaftner "Largest group of planes they've ever seen" Fort Shaftner reports back that they are probably B-17's on final approach and to disregard. At this point the Japanese strike is 70 miles away from their target.

07:33 The Military code breakers intercept a message to the Japanese Embassy to break off negotiations believing this is a precursor to war, General Marshall sends a warning to General Short in Hawaii, because of atmospheric conditions the message has to go by telegraph, Short dosen't receive the message until after the attack is over at 15:00 long after the attack.

07:40 the second wave of Japanese planes leave their carriers, its composed of 49 high altitude bombers, 51 dive bombers, 40 torpedo planes and 43 fighters.

07:49 Japanese flight leader Fuchida notices no aircraft carriers at Pearl, but he sends out the message To Ra To Ra To Ra by Morse code.

07:55 Cmdr Ramsey spots a low flying plane and thinks its a wreckless Army flyer, then he see's the bomb drop off and runs to the radio room and sends out a coded message to all ships and bases "air raid under way this is not a drill" The Japanese proceed to destroy most ground based fighters as they are parked wing tip to wing tip to make it easier to prevent sabotage.

08:00 the aformentioned B-17 arrive at Pearl in the middle of the attack and commence to emergency landing

08:10 and armor piercing bomb hits the Arizona and pierces its gunpowder magazine. The Arizona leaps 15 feet in the air and then its back breaks and it sinks in 9 minutes killing 1177 men

08:50 the Nevada gets under way with the intent of getting out of the harbor to open seas. The Japanese attack her but the captain intentionally grounds her so he won't be sunk and plug the harbor.

08:54 the second wave hits the navy dry docks destroying the Oil storage the Pennsylvania and the light cruiser Raleigh

09:30 the Destroyer Shaw is hit and has its bow blown off the picture of its death becomes an iconic photo from that day

10:00 The first wave rendevous with a flight of Japanese bombers who guide them back to the carriers. The pilots urge a third strike to knock out the gasoline storage and knock pearl harbor out for weeks. But the Japanese commanders decide that a third strike will be dangerous and they don't know where the US carriers are.

10:30 the casualties start arriving at hospitals. Desperate nurses use their lipstick to write M on the foreheads of wounded men as a designation for Morphine. The deathtoll hits 2,390

13:00 the victorious Japanese Navy finishes recover of their second strike and turns for home.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by chubeyr1

Why did Japan ever choose the Germans as an ally? Why did Russia?

History is filled with what ifs.

Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany both hated communism which led to an anti-communism pact. Germany and the USSR momentarily worked together because Germany need critical resources from the USSR (especially petrol, key food resources and metals for alloys) and the USSR needed technology transfers from Germany and Stalin was also trying to buy time since he belatedly realized he had badly weakened the USSR's fighting power with the purges of the Red Army.

There was actually some discussion of the USSR joining the Axis powers, which then would have made them an incredibly formidable force for just the Western Allies to fight. But that was too much against Nazi ideology to accept.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by chubeyr1

Love this thread!


Had Japan not attacked pearl harbor history would be very interesting.

Why did Japan ever choose the Germans as an ally? Why did Russia?

The Japanese (and Russians) at the time were hardcore nationalists and believed in their ethnic superiority just like the Nazis did. Nationalists tend to stick together even if their ultimate goals differ. Russia and their allies were doing the exact same thing the Nazis were doing at the time, but the winners of the war tend to write the history books.

Even some African leaders supported Hitler as their goals were the same... removal of ethnic outsiders (including whites).

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

With a Hawaii under Japanese Control it would have made a natural refueling and re-arming station for the Japanese Navy.

Japan was working on a long range bomber named the G10N a four engine heavy plane that was designed to hit the US West Coast, it was cancelled in 1944 when Japan's fortunes were turning towards defeat.

An attack on the West Coast was never meant to be a prelude to an invasion, the Japanese knew that they would never succeed in that. The plan was to basically demoralize the American's to the point of surrender, which meant a roving fleet of battleships and aircraft carriers bombing and destroying key civilian and military targets up and down the coast, I would assume that Vancouver would have taken a pounding as well.

I tend to think that the Japanese also thought that if they could take the American's out of the war then they could focus on Australia as a priority target.

Kind of makes sense. The Japanese weren't looking to take over America, only their holdings in the Pacific. The average American hadn't heard of most of those islands, and they were probably going to go their own ways at some point anyways. When you have Japanese bombers doing runs on downtown LA, I can see the American public not giving an F about the fate of random Philippine islands.

The US coast also had not entrenched anti-air systems. Installing those along a coast line that large would be a huge and lengthy job.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The Japanese (and Russians) at the time were hardcore nationalists and believed in their ethnic superiority just like the Nazis did. Nationalists tend to stick together even if their ultimate goals differ. Russia and their allies were doing the exact same thing the Nazis were doing at the time, but the winners of the war tend to write the history books.

Even some African leaders supported Hitler as their goals were the same... removal of ethnic outsiders (including whites).

The world's view, as a whole, on racism was very different at the time. Many large North American companies and mainstream political candidates openly supported the Nazis.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

There's a Pearl Harbor documentary on HBO right now. Just started but I'm sure it'll play again.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Just an add on, but there was an excellent documentary on Admiral Kimmel last night, the man disgraced and blamed for the failure to defend Pearl Harbor.

At the time of Pearl Harbor he was the CinC Pacific Fleet and a 4 star.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husband_E._Kimmel

He was hit by a spent Japanese .50 cal bullet that struck his glasses case and he said "It would have been merciful if it had killed me"

He spent the rest of his life fighting the charge of dereliction of duty and eventually argued that he wasn't given access to Magic a program that intercepted Japanese diplomatic communications.

His son was a submarine commander in WW2 who survived a sinking only to be doused in gasoline and lit on fire by his Japanese captures.

I have to assume this is the same documentary I just watched.

It was all about how Kimmel got blamed and Stark was really to blame, along with other major communication breakdowns and how Kimmel was stabbed in the back by the us military and us government.

It was called Pearl Harbor: The Accused. It is a new Canadian made production. Just premiered the other day.

[CaptainCrunch]

Yup it was some good work.

I'm watching the excellent Tora Tora Tora right now. the only annoying part is that the channel I'm watching it on doesn't have the subtitles for the Japanese parts.

[puffnstuff]

There has been another doc on a couple of times in the last couple of days. Focused on Roosevelt and the hours between the attack and his infamy speech. Very interesting.


And just flipping thru the channels PBS currently showing Into the Arizona. They are using an ROV to go inside the Az forthe first time since it sank.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yup it was some good work.

I'm watching the excellent Tora Tora Tora right now. the only annoying part is that the channel I'm watching it on doesn't have the subtitles for the Japanese parts.

Haha oh man as soon as the doc ended I turned it there too! And I was just googling to see if it is a mistake, and clearly it is.

There's so much ####ing Japanese, like 30% of the movie is incomprehensible. I mean, I have a basic idea what's gonna happen, they're gonna bomb Pearl Harbor, but it is still annoying.

[CaptainCrunch]

Which is kind of a shame because the japanese parts are really key. Its one of the best war movies ever made in my mind.