Republican Convention

[Lurch]

Bush even with Clinton on the political spectrum??? My God (tongue firmly in cheek).

I'm not sure whether Bush has so completely snowed America (not the world, as if you take a look at how he is perceived anywhere outside of about 35 states, it's pretty consistent) or whether we all somehow misread the 'compassionate conservative' but Bush and his fellow ideologues are seen as about one step to the left of the absolute end of the spectrum.

Clearly, Bush has pursued a right wing economic policy - tax cuts for the rich, reduce taxes on capital formation, spend big money on the military to boost the economy, etc. Argue his economics if you want, but even the Omaha Oracle, Warren Buffet, has come down clearly against his economic policy, never mind every Nobel economist the US has ever produced.
http://money.cnn.com/2003/05/20/news/buffett_tax/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2735269.stm

As for his social and religious views, when was the last president so clearly religious, wearing his bias on his sleeve? "You're either with us or your against us" and "Axes of evil" strikes me as straight out of the Crusades. If Bush is about equivalent to Clinton, where does that put Guliani and Arnold, who are oh so clearly left of Bush? Are you suggesting they are more Democrat than the Democrats? Education coupons, a Bush suggestion I agree with - clearly right of center bringing markets to education.

Is there any one area Bush can be described as a moderate? From where I sit, on the moderate right wing, I can barely see the guy he's so far out there.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Interesting folks you are....scared of religion? I don't get it.

Oh Good Lord, as used by me, is a phrase of exasperation nothing more. I haven't been inside a church or opened a bible in over 15 years....not that that makes me cool.

Reagan and Bush's father were both farther to the right on the political spectrum than GW Bush. That's just an undeniable fact.

One person brings up Cheney's voting record in Congress, all of which is nearly 20 years old or more.....I'll say the same for John Kerry....his voting record in the Senate over 19 years if the most liberal of any Senator....yet since 9/11 his views on defense have adjusted to meet the mood of the world. Yet somehow I'm supposed to believe that Cheney is antiquated in his views? Sorry...it works both ways.

Bill Clinton is NOT a liberal. He was a moderate democrat...very much on the right of the spectrum of his party. Bush is not an ultra-conservative, he's a moderate....very much on the left of the spectrum of the GOP. Yes Clinton is left of Bush....not by much.

I looked at your link troutman....I think it is scary....yep....when the page uses hearsay from a Palestinian activist and calls it a quote from the president....that's scary. Also interesting that you use the opinion of someone who lies for a living to illustrate just how scary Bush's theocratic intentions are.

If you guys think Bush is bumping up against the right hand wall of the political ballroom, I imagine you'd be driven to assassination if someone who was truly ultra-conservative stepped into the White House.

[EddyBeers]

I don't want to reiinterate what Lurch said, but Herbert Walker = tax hikes, Dubya = massive tax cuts for the rich, Clinton = tax hikes for the rich. I will let the people of CP determine where this fits in on the political spectrum

CC, you say "Reagan and Bush's father were both farther to the right on the political spectrum than GW Bush. That's just an undeniable fact."

What proof is there of this? Please explain

"Romanow is to the right of Mike Harris. That's just an undeniable fact"

I can say this too, but it may now be true. But it may be true since conservatives somehow think that they have a monopoly on balanced budgets, even though only the Klein government has balanced its budgets as a right leaning government through incredible luck.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lurch@Aug 31 2004, 04:44 PM
Bush even with Clinton on the political spectrum??? My God (tongue firmly in cheek).

I'm not sure whether Bush has so completely snowed America (not the world, as if you take a look at how he is perceived anywhere outside of about 35 states, it's pretty consistent) or whether we all somehow misread the 'compassionate conservative' but Bush and his fellow ideologues are seen as about one step to the left of the absolute end of the spectrum.

Clearly, Bush has pursued a right wing economic policy - tax cuts for the rich, reduce taxes on capital formation, spend big money on the military to boost the economy, etc. Argue his economics if you want, but even the Omaha Oracle, Warren Buffet, has come down clearly against his economic policy, never mind every Nobel economist the US has ever produced.
http://money.cnn.com/2003/05/20/news/buffett_tax/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2735269.stm

As for his social and religious views, when was the last president so clearly religious, wearing his bias on his sleeve? "You're either with us or your against us" and "Axes of evil" strikes me as straight out of the Crusades. If Bush is about equivalent to Clinton, where does that put Guliani and Arnold, who are oh so clearly left of Bush? Are you suggesting they are more Democrat than the Democrats? Education coupons, a Bush suggestion I agree with - clearly right of center bringing markets to education.

Is there any one area Bush can be described as a moderate? From where I sit, on the moderate right wing, I can barely see the guy he's so far out there.

Clearly his economic policy is NOT conservative. He's spent way more money than most conservatives are comfortable with. That doesn't make his policy liberal either.....he, of course, cut taxes which is the conservative mantra. But believe me, many conservatives in this country are as disturbed by his economic policy as liberals. Then again, no other President in history has faced the same kind of instantaneous economic plight that he has.

"Your with us or against us" has religious connotations? "evil" has a religious connotation? Not it my view. In fact, there was a thread about the word in this forum several days ago and there weren't many people who believed the word to have religious connotations. So why when Bush uses it do we label him a zealot?The former refers to the war on terror and I think it's pretty freaking straight forward. There are those who are against terrorism and those who aren't. What's religious about that?

The gap between Bush and Clinton is probably larger than I insinuated. I have no problem admitting that....but clearly most people around here think he's as conservative as it gets which is laughable quite frankly.

[Table 5]

Originally posted by fotze@Aug 31 2004, 01:50 PM
Well that seems stupid. The location at which you exited your mothers vagina determines if you can run for president, I guess equality only goes so far.

Unfortunately, that event also holds true for patriotism. Many people think their country is the best simply because they were born there.

[Table 5]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Aug 31 2004, 12:52 AM
I think the GOP would be wise to nominate one of McCain or Rudy Giuliani, especially if Bush wins this time....because you know who will be running for the Dems in 2008.

yikes, i sure hope you're not talking about the the she-b*tch, Hillary herself. I can't stand that woman, and i'd never vote for her ( even though i cant vote ) no matter how much i beleived in the party platform.

as for the GOP, the two men i respect the most are Powell and McCain, and im sure many people feel the same. If either of them ran, I'd have a hard time voting against them ( ( even though i cant vote ) for the simple fact they are one of the very few people in political power who display a sense of dignity, honor and virtue, even if their beliefs vary from my own.

Guliani would be a succesful candidate simply because the man is a great speaker and could charm the pants off of many people with his conversational type of speaches ( eg, see last night ). His policies might be off, but his personality would make many people ignore those.....much in the same way Clinton did before.

[gdoll]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Aug 31 2004, 09:58 AM
Interesting folks you are....scared of religion?# I don't get it.

Oh Good Lord, as used by me, is a phrase of exasperation nothing more.# I haven't been inside a church or opened a bible in over 15 years....not that that makes me cool.

Reagan and Bush's father were both farther to the right on the political spectrum than GW Bush.# That's just an undeniable fact.

One person brings up Cheney's voting record in Congress, all of which is nearly 20 years old or more.....I'll say the same for John Kerry....his voting record in the Senate over 19 years if the most liberal of any Senator....yet since 9/11 his views on defense have adjusted to meet the mood of the world.# Yet somehow I'm supposed to believe that Cheney is antiquated in his views?# Sorry...it works both ways.

Bill Clinton is NOT a liberal.# He was a moderate democrat...very much on the right of the spectrum of his party.# Bush is not an ultra-conservative, he's a moderate....very much on the left of the spectrum of the GOP.# Yes Clinton is left of Bush....not by much.#

I looked at your link troutman....I think it is scary....yep....when the page uses hearsay from a Palestinian activist and calls it a quote from the president....that's scary.# Also interesting that you use the opinion of someone who lies for a living to illustrate just how scary Bush's theocratic intentions are.#

If you guys think Bush is bumping up against the right hand wall of the political ballroom, I imagine you'd be driven to assassination if someone who was truly ultra-conservative stepped into the White House.

I will give you this - Reagan was more of a fiscal conservative than Bush. That's where the agreement stops. Show me any iota of the Bush/Cheney agenda that puts them on equal liberal footing with Kerry, Clinton, or the mainstream Dem party. If Bush/Cheney are truely moderate conservatives, what do you call Schwartzennegger (sp?)

You give a lot of opinion, but I would like to see some policy (social) that packs up the opinion.

Your comments on Cheney - I did not ask you to believe his views are antiquated, just ultra-right wing, which his record reflects. Kerry is very much a Liberal's liberal which doesn't give me a lot of comfort, but he doesn't hide his liberal roots. His views since 9/11 had to adjust to the reality of his country getting attacked. Kerry and his supporters are not trying to make him out to be anything but a liberal Democrat, unlike the Bush/Cheney camp. They are religious idealist right-wing politicians, who have an great ability to sell their agenda of fear and tax cuts. I am glad I am not able to vote (i'm canadian after all), because I don't know what the heck I would do if I had to!

[troutman]

Bush is not an ultra-conservative, he's a moderate....very much on the left of the spectrum of the GOP

I disagree:

http://www.opednews.com/degelman0104_left_of_right.htm

Bush and his Congress are so Far Right, Look Who They Make Seem Lefty.

Though, some conservatives complain he has not gone far enough to the right:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C293...9552%2C00.html

While Democrats have called President Bush the most conservative president in history, conservative support is starting to crack among those who say the president has not moved far enough to the right.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Quickly...as I have stome things to do away from the PC

1. Illegal immigration policy was immediately embraced by liberals in Congress and passed on the strength of Democratic support.

2. No Child left Behind education policy...championed by Ted Kennedy in Congress is a Bush policy.

3. Unemployment benefits extensions

4. Overtime reform laws were designed to ensure overtime for workers and eliminate it for high pay executives.

Those are a few examples of the non-conservative portion of Bush's policy successes.

Look, I'm not trying to say the guy is a liberal for God sake. I'm just refuting the original quote and subsequent paranoia of troutman that paints Bush as an ultra-conservative who is secretly trying to turn American into a giant protestant church.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by troutman@Aug 31 2004, 05:39 PM
Bush is not an ultra-conservative, he's a moderate....very much on the left of the spectrum of the GOP

I disagree:

http://www.opednews.com/degelman0104_left_of_right.htm

Bush and his Congress are so Far Right, Look Who They Make Seem Lefty.

Though, some conservatives complain he has not gone far enough to the right:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C293...9552%2C00.html

While Democrats have called President Bush the most conservative president in history, conservative support is starting to crack among those who say the president has not moved far enough to the right.

So who do you believe troutman? The democrats who have the motive to paint him that way to get him out of the White House or his own party who don't?

I'll take the latter...much less reason NOT to believe them.

[troutman]

I've been trying to find a diagram on the web that shows where different politicians fit on the political spectrum. That would be interesting to discuss if someone knows where we can find an example.

[Lurch]

I think my Bush quotes speak more to an inflexibility, which I believe is the negative aspect of the right wing that discomforts me. Bush strikes me as a zealot in that once he embarks down a path, for little or no reason it now seems, he cannot or will not back down. He manufactured a war, destroyed an institution which has helped the world avoid a major war for 60 years (UN has basically no standing left after Bush ignored it), increased Muslim anger an untold amount, alienated America from much of the world, etc. and accomplished what exactly? IMO, this is a monstrous price to pay, and you better be willing to show your country is in a tremendously better position as a result.

As for the war on terror, can you show Bush has actually pursued a policy anywhere near consistent with the goal of eliminating terror? If you watched the interview with Bush several days ago he said you can't win a war on terror, you need to create conditions in other countries that make them less prone to accepting terrorists. Is this what you think the war in Iraq accomplished?? In fact, I would suggest that he has done more than any terrorist (edited for clarity) could ask for advancing the cause of terrorists, in that recruitment just got a lot easier. So unless Bush believes Iraq is now less likely to create and harbour terrorists than it was 2 years ago, he is pursuing a policy inconsistent with his own beliefs simply because he thinks 'it was the right thing to do'.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Aug 31 2004, 10:58 AM
Interesting folks you are....scared of religion? I don't get it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm freakin' scared of a politician who wears his religion like a badge of honour. It scares me that someone who feels the need to express his deep religious beliefs in every speech can hold as much power as the US president. We've got millennia of history teaching us that religion is a source of conflict. I'm not saying that GW went into Afghanistan or Iraq because of religion, but it could be argued that his constant references to his own Christianity are inflaming the anger of those who already dislike the USA.

I realize that most leaders probably have such beliefs, but most are also wise enough to know that these are personal beliefs, not necessarily for public expression. We've had the argument before as to whether or not "God bless our country" and similar expressions constitute a reference to Christianity. I won't try and claim that it does this time...but it undeniably suggests a belief in a higher power. I think it's also safe to say that many Islamic extremists would take that as a declaration of the USA's Christianity, which does nothing to defuse their anti-US feelings.

Scared of religion? No. Scared of a man with incredible power who constantly spouts off about religion? You bet.

[metallicat]

Anyone watch Arnold's speech?

ARNOLD FOR PRESIDENT
2008

Maybe not. But I thought he did an awesome job. Very charismatic and the crowd just loved him. I got goosebumps, and I'm not even an American.

[metallicat]

Never mind about Arnold for President. I failed to realize that you must be an American born citizen to be eligible for POTUS.

[Table 5]

anyone catch that ultra-creepy old woman from some jewish organization ranting on about who knows what at the end yesterday? that literally was the most bizzare speaker i have ever seen.