[Game Takes] Rangers 4 Flames 1

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't see a lack of effort to be honest ... I see utter confusion in some, complete jitters in others.

Look at the opening face off last night. Back to Giordano who takes it up the wall, loses it, gets it back, flubs it, then turns it over. First 10 seconds of the game. I was like ... here we go again.

I'm under no illusions here, this team is in big trouble in the standings. The hole is getting too deep.

But from watching hockey for 35 years, teams that make coaching changes all the time never move up the standings. I just don't see the brain center of this team stupid enough to hire a guy that can't coach.

Yeah I probably should have been clearer. I didn't so much mean that it was a lack of effort as much as it is a lack of willingness to get into the dirty areas, to play with zeal or emotion, to get engaged physically or if one is incapable, at least posturing in front of the net. No willingness to drive to the net or dirty areas. That on the forecheck there is a lack of urgency or conviction.

Those things. And if the system doesn't warrant any of this things, then I guess I just fundamentally disagree with the approach. They do seem to be skating hard uselessly though I would agree with that.

[Justin]

It's amazing the Dave Cameron is still with the team, let alone in charge of the PP. What an offensive juggernaut that thing is.

People can blame it on the players all they want for "not stepping up and executing" but when you're consistently 0.0% at home on the PP, the PP coach has to begin to take the heat.

If you have 20 students in a class and 20 student continuously bomb an exam over and over and over, you have to look at the teacher.

[Gaskal]

He's a good strategist and a great communicator, which is why I believe Bingo that the players haven't tuned him out or dislike him. But you need your coach to motivate your players in the locker room and behind the bench as well, and I'm not seeing that. Not from the player's body language or Glen's. The Backlund line (again!) with Johnny, and Stajan, were the only ones who seemed to give a damn last night. Everyone else was really just going through the motions. That kind of stuff falls on the coaching staff.

I'm not seeing 'shake-up's mid-game, to try and claw away with a victory either. How many times have we screamed for Elliott to be yanked in relief and he's been left there to fester in front of a team that's clearly given up? Game 6, Hartley immediately staples Hiller to the bench after the Canucks went up 2-0, and we went on to win 7-4.

Also, maybe it's selective memory talking, but I don't recall a single time where Gulutzan's burned an early timeout after a shaky start to settle the team down the way Hartley used to. Is he just afraid he won't have his coach's challenge on hand or something? Isn't he supposed to be 'dialled in' to his player's emotions and state of mind enough to at least acknowledge something like that might help? The most he's done when down is to juggle lines, which often end up failing spectacularly.

[D as in David]

I'm beginning to think that Hartley WAS the leadership of this team or, at least, its heart and soul. That isn't good for a team in the long run but it would explain why the team played with heart under him and not so much this year.

Until this vacuum is filled, I don't think this team is going anywhere.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by D as in David

I'm beginning to think that Hartley WAS the leadership of this team or, at least, its heart and soul. That isn't good for a team in the long run but it would explain why the team played with heart under him and not so much this year.

Until this vacuum is filled, I don't think this team is going anywhere.

The Flames organization has Gio, Monahan and new comer Brouwer.... who has not worn a letter in his 8 year career.

Both Gio and Monahan are lead by example guys.... neither one seems to be a locker room leader.. Neither one is very comfortable with this leadership responsibility that comes with Captain-ship

Has there been any interviews, taking of responsibility by these guys... calling out of the effort of the team as a whole?

The whole season is basically down the drain and I have not heard of any players only meetings.

The Treliving process does not prioritize an extrovert competitive player.

Waiting for Bennett? or maybe Tkachuck? or Jankowski? Hopefully the high pick the Flames get in 2017 will be a leader.

[Bingo]

They had a players only meeting after the Washington loss.

[JiriHrdina]

I think Gio is more than a lead by example guy, though that is part of his approach to be sure. I think he is vocal, but keeps it in the room.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't see a lack of effort to be honest ... I see utter confusion in some, complete jitters in others.

Look at the opening face off last night. Back to Giordano who takes it up the wall, loses it, gets it back, flubs it, then turns it over. First 10 seconds of the game. I was like ... here we go again.

I'm under no illusions here, this team is in big trouble in the standings. The hole is getting too deep.

But from watching hockey for 35 years, teams that make coaching changes all the time never move up the standings. I just don't see the brain center of this team stupid enough to hire a guy that can't coach.

I agree: it's not a lack of effort, they look confused and lack confidence.

And I also agree: franchises that change coaches all the time are bad franchises. It takes time sometimes.

Also, I agree that this management group is smart and thorough - I trust their decisions.

Having said all that, sometimes things just aren't right and you have to cut your loses - regardless of all of the points above.

I was in the 'give it time' camp from the get go. I, like you, have been around a while and know that it takes time and patience, that things don't always fall immediately into place, and that panicking and constantly changing if it doesn't work immediately is a recipe for failure.

But I think we've seen enough here. I think this coaching staff has shown that it is the wrong group at the wrong time.

I think we're done and we need to cut bait.

And to those that think that would maybe cost Treliving his job, I don't agree. I think it takes more leadership to recognize a personal failure and deal with it. To me, the big failure would be an unwillingness to admit, accept, and correct the problem

[JiriHrdina]

If they start to believe, and I'm not sure they have, that GG is not the guy then I think the next question should be whether or not there is someone out there now that is the right long-term guy, or if they would be better served to wait until next off-season.
Nothing should be done to try and save this season if it also isn't the right long-term move. Seeing another season down the drain is frustrating, but at this point, the season is likely lost regardless.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They had a players only meeting after the Washington loss.

Since then:

1-5-0

outscored 24 - 8

looked completely listless in 2 of the games (LA and NY)

gave up in two of the games (CHI and ANA)

By the way, I do not think that leadership, i.e.. Giordano, is the problem at all. Blaming leadership every time a team fails is a pathetic cop-out IMO.

This is on everyone - and I am leaning more and more to the coaching.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If they start to believe, and I'm not sure they have, that GG is not the guy then I think the next question should be whether or not there is someone out there now that is the right long-term guy, or if they would be better served to wait until next off-season.
Nothing should be done to try and save this season if it also isn't the right long-term move. Seeing another season down the drain is frustrating, but at this point, the season is likely lost regardless.

This is the real challenge (if you do in fact want to make a coaching change).

The simple fact of the matter is that there are very few candidates available in the middle of the season. So do you make an interim change for the sake of change? Because that could easily make things worse. Or do you wait it out?

One of the worst, and most frustrating situations to find yourself in, just 16 games into a season - especially one that held so much hope and promise.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If they start to believe, and I'm not sure they have, that GG is not the guy then I think the next question should be whether or not there is someone out there now that is the right long-term guy, or if they would be better served to wait until next off-season.
Nothing should be done to try and save this season if it also isn't the right long-term move. Seeing another season down the drain is frustrating, but at this point, the season is likely lost regardless.

I imagine Gulutzan will be here until either the summer, or closer to the end of the season when someone can then step in as interim head coach.

Potential Free Agent Coaches:

- Claude Julien
- Lindy Ruff
- Ken Hitchcock (has said retirement is the plan)
- Jack Capuono

Potential Coaches available via termination:

- John Tortorella (...lol)
- Darryl Sutter
- Willie Desjardins

So it's not like the market for "established" coaches will be overflowing with talent - but I'd view Julien and Sutter as two guys who could absolutely be pursued if they become available (I'd also be happy with either one).

[killer_carlson]

If Sutter becomes available, then we need to back up the truck to get him in here. Problem will be I think several other teams will be doing the same thing.

Ruff is another guy i'd take here in a heartbeat.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If they start to believe, and I'm not sure they have, that GG is not the guy then I think the next question should be whether or not there is someone out there now that is the right long-term guy, or if they would be better served to wait until next off-season.
Nothing should be done to try and save this season if it also isn't the right long-term move. Seeing another season down the drain is frustrating, but at this point, the season is likely lost regardless.

Agree with not rushing to save the season. But if/when they conclude GG is not the right guy, then they better take a hard look at the process that led them to make the decision to hire him. The timing of Hartley's firing and GG's hiring has been attributed to "thoroughness". It might be indecisiveness and a lack of clarity around what this team really needs.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I agree: it's not a lack of effort, they look confused and lack confidence.

And I also agree: franchises that change coaches all the time are bad franchises. It takes time sometimes.

Also, I agree that this management group is smart and thorough - I trust their decisions.

Having said all that, sometimes things just aren't right and you have to cut your loses - regardless of all of the points above.

I was in the 'give it time' camp from the get go. I, like you, have been around a while and know that it takes time and patience, that things don't always fall immediately into place, and that panicking and constantly changing if it doesn't work immediately is a recipe for failure.

But I think we've seen enough here. I think this coaching staff has shown that it is the wrong group at the wrong time.

I think we're done and we need to cut bait.

And to those that think that would maybe cost Treliving his job, I don't agree. I think it takes more leadership to recognize a personal failure and deal with it. To me, the big failure would be an unwillingness to admit, accept, and correct the problem

I agree with this totally, nothing wrong with being assertive and making decisions when they are needed. I think the longer BT drags on with this group of coaches not doing well the more likely it will affect his job status. If anything if GG is staying he should look for a better fit on special teams to give his systems and approach a chance. I think GG keeps mixing the wrong items in the blender trying to get results but perhaps this is partially due to inexperience in these situations.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

If Sutter becomes available, then we need to back up the truck to get him in here. Problem will be I think several other teams will be doing the same thing.

Ruff is another guy i'd take here in a heartbeat.

If Darryl Sutter is fired, Brad Treliving should literally be in the same office as he's being fired in with a contract sitting under his termination papers.

[Enoch Root]

I love Darryl Sutter the coach as much as anyone, but I don't see him being a fit for this team.

The Flames are not physical. They are not in your face. They are incapable of making life difficult for the other team. I cannot see them playing Sutter hockey.

The Flames best, and most important / impactful players are Gaudreau and Brodie. They need to accept what they are and be a puck-moving, offensive team.

That doesn't mean no defense. And it doesn't mean that size and physicality aren't important. I just think that they should model their style after the Chicagos and TBs of the league, not the Kings or the Blues.

You need a style that fits your personnel, and I don't see Sutter being that for the current Flames.