Random Man stabs and kills 13 year old Girl in Abbotsford at School

[GGG]

Originally Posted by rayne008

I'm having a hard time with this story - breaks my heart and never know what to do.

Do I read more about it, learn more about all the potential dangers my kids face every day? Or do I not read up on the details because its to painful to think of what this poor girl went through and the anguish the parents are feeling right now.

Not that it's any consolation to anyone but statisticly these events don't happen. Your child will never die in a random knife attack.

It's senseless rarity makes it so tragic.

[keratosis]

My cousins wife is the principal at that school. Needless to say, they are all devastated. The whole of Abbotsford for that matter.
I refuse to watch the video. I'll not comment on people that feel the need to watch it.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by GGG

Not that it's any consolation to anyone but statisticly these events don't happen. Your child will never die in a random knife attack.

It's senseless rarity makes it so tragic.

Actually statistically they do happen...

[GGG]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Actually statistically they do happen...

Your being pedantic.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Argument from incredulity.

Nope. I simply believe everyone is responsible for their actions.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Nope. I simply believe everyone is responsible for their actions.

What if they had no control, like literally no knowledge it even happened and are subsequently found not criminally responsible?

Do you believe that isn't a thing or you believe it's a thing and they should still punished regardless?

Not being snarky, btw, just genuinely wanted clarification.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What if they had no control, like literally no knowledge it even happened and are subsequently found not criminally responsible?

Do you believe that isn't a thing or you believe it's a thing and they should still punished regardless?

Not being snarky, btw, just genuinely wanted clarification.

Honestly don't waste your time. EE always knows more than the experts on every topic he decides to weigh in on.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Nope. I simply believe everyone is responsible for their actions.

My last but one foster kid heard voices constantly, he would occasionally shout '#### off' as if he had tourets but it was because the voices constantly criticised him, called him a loser and a ######, he believed that it was the neighbours of his mums house that were talking about him, they were ten odd miles away but he was also convinced that I could also hear the voices and was just pretending I couldn't. I'd catch him looking at me intently to see if I would react to the voices he was hearing. I learnt to recognise when he was hearing things and it helped some when I started to tell him that I wasn't hearing anything but I could tell he was hearing something.

He had utterly no idea what was reality and was his illness most of the time.

He was unable to function, he believed ghosts and evil spirits were following him, watching him constantly and were out to hurt him. He'd self medicate with weed or crack mainly as being high made his weird behaviour more explainable to his friends, it was almost cover for his real weirdness.

My first thought when I heard the news was please don't let it be him, he was beyond my ability to cope with and had moved to a fully staffed resource although I still feel guilty about that as I could help the kid but not at the risk of my other foster kids, pets girlfriend etc.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What if they had no control, like literally no knowledge it even happened and are subsequently found not criminally responsible?

Do you believe that isn't a thing or you believe it's a thing and they should still punished regardless?

Not being snarky, btw, just genuinely wanted clarification.

I think in some cases, like heinous violent crimes, they should be punished regardless.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I won't comment on this specific event, and I can certainly understand where Erik Estrada is coming from.

But that stance is simply wrong. It goes against science. We've proven that schizophrenia and other mental disorders exists. Chemical imbalance, misfiring neurons, genetics, these are things someone simply has no control over. Because of that, there exists people who literally believe that the person sitting next to them is trying to steal their soul, or put the devil in their head. It's not normal, and because of that they do things irrational that they can't be held responsible for. They can not be responsible for their actions. With what we know now, it's like telling a paraplegic to get up and stop being such a bitch pretending to be paralyzed.

I get that it's not all black and white. I think a situation where someone who does have mental disorders, does get help in the form of medication, but then, while in a 'normal' state of mind decides to stop taking medication should be held responsible to a degree. In a similar sense that we realize that drinking and driving may cause accidents and should be held responsible, someone who goes off their medication voluntarily also should be held responsible in that sense, but still far from black and white.

Knowing the state of minds of de Grood and Vince Li at the time of the incidents, no one of a reasonable sound mind should be able to be come to the conclusion that they were thinking normally. It's almost scary that people think they should be held criminally responsible, I can't help but think what is wrong with those who do (of course with the great exception of those who were affected by the incidents, friends, families, relatives, first responders etc.). Who can hear the story of a person who thinks that the devil and aliens are trying to kill him and the only way to save himself and the rest of humanity (because he's Jesus) is to decapitate and eat the flesh of the passenger next to him. How can you hear that and be like "pssh, whenever I get the urge to kill the alien devil next to me, I'm able to control myself and not kill him."

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I think in some cases, like heinous violent crimes, they should be punished regardless.

That's a huge moral question for sure. Pretty difficult to justify punishment for something that isn't even known to the offender. That's something you attack medically.

Lock up at that point makes absolutely no sense, like none, other than to make a human being pay to appease people's sense of revenge and justice. Scary road, but it's also how our societies dealt with it many years ago. Thankfully we've evolved way past that.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I think in some cases, like heinous violent crimes, they should be punished regardless.

That's a scary idea. Way more scary than any of the incidents. The idea that you know these people aren't responsible for their actions, but you want to punish them still. That's a society I don't want to live in. Thank God I don't.

Again, not commenting on this specific event as the specifics aren't out. But punishing a person who science says has no control over his actions for some sick sense of justice?

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I won't comment on this specific event, and I can certainly understand where Erik Estrada is coming from.

But that stance is simply wrong. It goes against science. We've proven that schizophrenia and other mental disorders exists. Chemical imbalance, misfiring neurons, genetics, these are things someone simply has no control over. Because of that, there exists people who literally believe that the person sitting next to them is trying to steal their soul, or put the devil in their head. It's not normal, and because of that they do things irrational that they can't be held responsible for. They can not be responsible for their actions. With what we know now, it's like telling a paraplegic to get up and stop being such a bitch pretending to be paralyzed.

I get that it's not all black and white. I think a situation where someone who does have mental disorders, does get help in the form of medication, but then, while in a 'normal' state of mind decides to stop taking medication should be held responsible to a degree. In a similar sense that we realize that drinking and driving may cause accidents and should be held responsible, someone who goes off their medication voluntarily also should be held responsible in that sense, but still far from black and white.

Knowing the state of minds of de Grood and Vince Li at the time of the incidents, no one of a reasonable sound mind should be able to be come to the conclusion that they were thinking normally. It's almost scary that people think they should be held criminally responsible, I can't help but think what is wrong with those who do. Who can hear the story of a person who thinks that the devil and aliens are trying to kill him and the only way to save himself and the rest of humanity (because he's Jesus) is to decapitate and eat the flesh of the passenger next to him. How can you hear that and be like "pssh, whenever I get the urge to kill the alien devil next to me, I'm able to control myself and not kill him."

Funny, I don't disagree with anything you've said here, but still, you're a threat to society now. That's why I said I wish the cops just shot and killed him (an Li for that matter), then there's no debate.

[fulham]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I think in some cases, like heinous violent crimes, they should be punished regardless.

This^

I don't care what made you kill someone, If your not mentally stable enough to not murder, then law abiding people should not have to deal with you.

[afc wimbledon]

I don't think you should ever punish someone for something they have no control over, that said I have no problem with keeping people contained and safe for the rest of their lives if need be.

[jayswin]

nm

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by jayswin

That's a huge moral question for sure. Pretty difficult to justify punishment for something that isn't even known to the offender. That's something you attack medically.

Lock up at that point makes absolutely no sense, like none, other than to make a human being pay to appease people's sense of revenge and justice. Scary road, but it's also how our societies dealt with it many years ago. Thankfully we've evolved way past that.

Well I'm also able to compartmentalize how I feel about things with what the law should be or is.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Funny, I don't disagree with anything you've said here, but still, you're a threat to society now. That's why I said I wish the cops just shot and killed him (an Li for that matter), then there's no debate.

Li also wanted to be shot by the cops. He pleaded for them to kill him, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not saying let them run freely in society. They clearly need help and society needs to be protected from them. That's exactly what happens. And it does become a difficult situation, like the case of Li, where they are deemed low risk to society and do start getting released. That's where I think we should just leave it up to the experts to decide when, if ever, people like this should be able to reintegrate with society.

[GGG]

There is a different between punishment and keeping society safe.

If a person can be rehabilitated to the point they are a similar risk then any random person (note this isn't zero risk) then releasing makes sense.

If you cannot then keeping them in the lowest level of incarceration that Kees the public safe should be done.

In general it shouldn't be about punishment it should be about assuring the safety of society

[Winsor_Pilates]

Such a sad story.
Someone whatsapped the video to my wife soon after it happened, before the news had broke.
I refuse to watch it, but heard it and that was enough.