Another nail in the coffin

[Fuzzy McGillicuddy]

Canada is no longer a nation of peace keepers. Our most recent major military deploytments (major for Canada) have been NATO assignments. In other words, we have taken sides in a war zone, we're not neutral observers. Afghanistan and the Balkans aren't about keeping the peace, it's about supposedly restoring order.

The blue-helmet, serving under the UN banner ideals are dead in a post-cold war era.

There is a key reason why our military has become a joke. Under Jean Chretien, Canada's military and foreign policy mirrored public sentiment in Quebec and not the rest of the country. Under Chretien's watch, the Canadian military was allowed to deteroriate to the point where we can no longer meet the obligations and tasks the nation wishes to see our military perform. Most of the nation supported the idea of our military serving during particular conflicts while Quebec did not.

In other words, the rest of the nation would be prepared to see the Canadian military have the capability of lending a support role during certain international conflict situations. But Chretien and the governing Liberals allowed the military to atrophy in order to appease the separtist movement.

[EddyBeers]

Originally posted by Thunderball+Aug 30 2004, 05:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Thunderball @ Aug 30 2004, 05:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Dirty Mr. Clean@Aug 29 2004, 06:26 PM
Wow the first election promise broken again. How many times with Canadians vote for these guys?

Edit: Grammer.

Actually the second... Goodale already all but said that National Pharmacare Program was not gonna happen.

But hey, who's counting?? well, we are, and its a damn shame the rest of the country isn't.

[/b][/quote]
This has nothing to do with the thread, but the Liberals never promised a national pharmacare program. But I digress, back to the thread. I think the biggest problem with the military is how much money is enough? You will always have some retired general saying that we need this, or we need that. Given the relatively low level of causualties that Canada has taken in international military action in the recent past, with the exception of what I guess is acceptable American military stupidity on the part of those in command of the US military, one may conclude that the military is adequately funded. Military hawks, like the Conservative party and former MP David Pratt will always be clamoring for more funding, but I guess what I am asking is what consititues enough funding?

[Thunderball]

Enough funding, if I am to understand correctly is to restore Military funding to pre-1993 levels. That seems to be the general concensus.

Frankly, what they are doing by cutting corners is simply wrong. I'd like to know where all the money they are diverting from National Defense is going, cause Healthcare is still a mess, post-secondary education is at an all-time high, provinces aren't receiving a whole lot more than before, large environmental initiatives aren't happening... what have they actually done.

As for the Pharmacare Program... maybe you didn't catch it cause they were making so many large claims, but Pharmacare was a predominantly NDP initiative that the left wing of the Liberals began to like, and they promised to "make it work within the system"... not even a month after, "umm... yeah can't work, sorry."

[Cube Inmate]

"Enough" funding is always discussed as relative to other NATO members, and relative to GDP. The number that pops into my mind as "enough" is always about 2% of GDP, whereas Canada is closer to 1%.

The argument you'll always hear is the Lib supporters saying we spend more than all but 4 (maybe more like 6) NATO countries, in total dollars, while anti-Libs will always point out that only Luxembourg spends less than Canada on a percent-of-GDP basis. From a table I found at Some Website, Canada is 7th in overal military spending within NATO, but only Luxembourg and Iceland (with no military whatsoever) are lower on a %GDP basis.

Edited because I'm a quotation mark "nut"
Edit 3: It's greenland and denmark, not Iceland. D'oh!

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by Thunderball@Aug 30 2004, 03:22 PM
Frankly, what they are doing by cutting corners is simply wrong. I'd like to know where all the money they are diverting from National Defense is going, cause Healthcare is still a mess, post-secondary education is at an all-time high, provinces aren't receiving a whole lot more than before, large environmental initiatives aren't happening... what have they actually done.

Gun Registry? Sponsorship Scandal? Who knows...

I'm actually more suprised that this news generated this much response. What else would you expect from the Liberals? I remember reading an editorial a week ago that said the entire military was caught off guard with Martin's claim of "5000 new peacekeepers". They had no idea where the money was going to come from to fund this new Liberal vendetta. I guess now we know.

But hey, lets keep putting the Liberals into power and through their own goodwill they will eventually straighten themselves out...

[Lurch]

Wow, quite a thread.

While I generally agree Canada has abdicated our responsibility to ourselves, NATO, our military and the world in general with regards to our military spending, I'm not sure I could disagree more with the general tone.

thier ######ed and stupid social programs.

the Liberals are dangerous to the survival of Canada both economically and Military. A Soviet mole in the 70's is a lot less dangerous to the viability of this country.

[QUOTE]this pinko idiot and Paul Martin are guilty of no less then treason as they not only leave us wide open to danger, but we will be forced to rely on other nations for our defense again.

IMO, it is these types of statements that doom the Reform/Conservative party to its western base and alienate people who may have a different view. I really gristle when I see stuff like this b/c I think those on the political right do themselves and their beliefs a huge disservice by making inflammatory and outrageous statements. Those who are undecided as to the issue at hand tend to gravitate to the other side when they see statements like Paul Martin should be charged with treason.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by EddyBeers+Aug 30 2004, 03:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (EddyBeers @ Aug 30 2004, 03:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Actually the second... Goodale already all but said that National Pharmacare Program was not gonna happen.

But hey, who's counting?? well, we are, and its a damn shame the rest of the country isn't.

This has nothing to do with the thread, but the Liberals never promised a national pharmacare program. But I digress, back to the thread. I think the biggest problem with the military is how much money is enough? You will always have some retired general saying that we need this, or we need that. Given the relatively low level of causualties that Canada has taken in international military action in the recent past, with the exception of what I guess is acceptable American military stupidity on the part of those in command of the US military, one may conclude that the military is adequately funded. Military hawks, like the Conservative party and former MP David Pratt will always be clamoring for more funding, but I guess what I am asking is what consititues enough funding? [/b][/quote]
I completely disagree with you here, just because your car brakes still work after 5 years dosen't mean you shouldn't spend money to keep them up to date.

To link casualties to adequete funding dosen't work, tell that to the troops that were killed when thier poorly armoured jeep took a mine, or to the helicopter pilots who spiraled into the ocean last year.

Battlefield casualties are in no way an indicator or funding. Its when men and woman are put into peril or a position to be killed due to poor equipment

[CaptainCrunch]

[quote]Originally posted by Lurch@Aug 30 2004, 10:58 PM
Wow, quite a thread.

While I generally agree Canada has abdicated our responsibility to ourselves, NATO, our military and the world in general with regards to our military spending, I'm not sure I could disagree more with the general tone.

thier ######ed and stupid social programs.

the Liberals are dangerous to the survival of Canada both economically and Military. A Soviet mole in the 70's is a lot less dangerous to the viability of this country.

this pinko idiot and Paul Martin are guilty of no less then treason as they not only leave us wide open to danger, but we will be forced to rely on other nations for our defense again.

IMO, it is these types of statements that doom the Reform/Conservative party to its western base and alienate people who may have a different view. I really gristle when I see stuff like this b/c I think those on the political right do themselves and their beliefs a huge disservice by making inflammatory and outrageous statements. Those who are undecided as to the issue at hand tend to gravitate to the other side when they see statements like Paul Martin should be charged with treason.

I'm not a politician nor do I have any interest in it so what I say should have no bearing on what political party people vote for. I hope people are smart enough to listen to the issues and decide on the merits.

Sadly this clearly didn't happen in the last election


On the whole treason thing, I have a simple viewpoint on it

When I was in the field if I provided a action that could cause the wasteful death or injury of a large amount of field personal, at the very least I could be charged with negligance (sp?), and if it was intentional I could be charged with treason.

The Liberals and Paul Martin have stripped budget dollars from the forces to pad thier nest egg of ######ed programs such as AdScam, The Gun Registry, the Governor Generals office etc.

In doing so they have supplied our uniformed men with substandard equipment (ie forest patterned fatiques in the desert, Helicopter issues and so on) that can in a modern battlefield get people killed

Negligant at the least, treason in my mind

[FlamesAllTheWay]

[quote]Originally posted by Lurch@Aug 30 2004, 04:58 PM
Wow, quite a thread.

While I generally agree Canada has abdicated our responsibility to ourselves, NATO, our military and the world in general with regards to our military spending, I'm not sure I could disagree more with the general tone.

thier ######ed and stupid social programs.

the Liberals are dangerous to the survival of Canada both economically and Military. A Soviet mole in the 70's is a lot less dangerous to the viability of this country.

this pinko idiot and Paul Martin are guilty of no less then treason as they not only leave us wide open to danger, but we will be forced to rely on other nations for our defense again.

IMO, it is these types of statements that doom the Reform/Conservative party to its western base and alienate people who may have a different view. I really gristle when I see stuff like this b/c I think those on the political right do themselves and their beliefs a huge disservice by making inflammatory and outrageous statements. Those who are undecided as to the issue at hand tend to gravitate to the other side when they see statements like Paul Martin should be charged with treason.

How would you describe the gun registry? Adscam, the 20 million/year budget for the Governer General, the helicopter shenanigans? These few things listed here, along with many others, are stupid. The Liberals bring this on themselves.

1 billion dollars wasted for a program that makes criminals out of innocent people and does nothing to lessen crime is nothing short of moronic. The military having to use out of date and substandard equipment when it is deployed is unnacceptable: Forest camo gear in a desert setting is embarrassing and unsafe for our soldiers. It is practically treason, in my mind, too...

[EddyBeers]

So hypothetically the Liberals put the 850 million or so from the gun registry, since to the best of my knowledge the auditor general said that it would "reach" 1 billion at current rates of spending in 2005. Hell, I will even say 1 billion since some reformer is going to come on here and cry that it is 1 billion. And the libs put the 250 million from adscam that the conservatives always quote. And the Liberals abolish the governor general with a national referendum that would cost 400 million, since the Charlottetown Accord basically created a convention that dictates that national decisions on costitutional matters. Where does the federal government find the 8 billion dollars a year to get military funding up to the level that conservatives desire. So far, I have found around 1.4 billion dollars tops to reach that level. The only solution that I can find is to raise taxes.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by EddyBeers@Aug 30 2004, 11:53 PM
So hypothetically the Liberals put the 850 million or so from the gun registry, since to the best of my knowledge the auditor general said that it would "reach" 1 billion at current rates of spending in 2005. Hell, I will even say 1 billion since some reformer is going to come on here and cry that it is 1 billion. And the libs put the 250 million from adscam that the conservatives always quote. And the Liberals abolish the governor general with a national referendum that would cost 400 million, since the Charlottetown Accord basically created a convention that dictates that national decisions on costitutional matters. Where does the federal government find the 8 billion dollars a year to get military funding up to the level that conservatives desire. So far, I have found around 1.4 billion dollars tops to reach that level. The only solution that I can find is to raise taxes.

We're not talking a 8 billion dollar increase per year, thats a pie in the sky figure, we're talking 3 billion per year as an increase.

With the amount of spending gaffs per year by the current government, combined with extremely top heavy administration created by the Liberals since they got back into government, combined with the budget surpluses we can find three billion.

One of health cares biggest problems is its wasteful spending in its current configuration, the amount of dollars spent on it would work if funds went towards the systems as opposed to wages paid to the upper level leaches. We don't need 10 or 15 levels of management. I'm also all for billing people a small amount for non essential services.

Welfare needs to be overhauled and turned into a short term solution for people down on thier luck as opposed to a long term source of Income.

Business developement loans, and handouts to businesses has to go to private hands, no more handouts by the government.

Let AirCanada die, quit throwing money at it


Privatize things like the CBC and Canada post.

Kill the RCMP or downsize it

Legalize dope, and tax it like crazy

Everytime Sheila Fraser releases its audit we see pages and pages of stupid spending, its time for the government to find a way to hack expenses. In a country like Canada there should be no reliance on the government for any kind of money except for some healthcare spending, some infrastructure delivery and defense.

[Cowboy]

Originally posted by Thunderball@Aug 30 2004, 03:22 PM
Enough funding, if I am to understand correctly is to restore Military funding to pre-1993 levels. That seems to be the general concensus.

Frankly, what they are doing by cutting corners is simply wrong. I'd like to know where all the money they are diverting from National Defense is going, cause Healthcare is still a mess, post-secondary education is at an all-time high, provinces aren't receiving a whole lot more than before, large environmental initiatives aren't happening... what have they actually done.

As for the Pharmacare Program... maybe you didn't catch it cause they were making so many large claims, but Pharmacare was a predominantly NDP initiative that the left wing of the Liberals began to like, and they promised to "make it work within the system"... not even a month after, "umm... yeah can't work, sorry."

Thunderball, the reason why health care and especially education is a mess is because we have a Conservative government in Alberta, it is not bad at all in B.C. I would predict there would be less money if we had a conservative government....and we will take our chances on it being better spent

Some of yoou guys rave about the Conservative government, but you don't remember that something like 10 conservative MP's spent time in Jail after Mulrooney's reign.

You claim you don't want to be the 52nd state of America so we need a military (which I agree), but we will be so far up the Americans ass if the conservatives come into power, we may just become the 52nd state officially(sarcasm). Our last conservative leader is resident of the U.S......fulltime.

Some want things changed but then you contradict yourself, and don't realize the consequences of having Conservatives in power will typically further deteriorate what you are trying to fix. Education for example...

I like the U.S. as much as the next person, but I want to have some sovreignty, Military is one way. But truly we don't really have to worry, I don't think the U.S. is attacking Canada anytime soon and they will back us if we are attacked (no question being their biggest trading partner it is in there best interest whether they like us or not). I think the international community might get a little upset if U.S. did, seeing as how they are a little irate about what is going on in Iraq

[CaptainCrunch]

Thunderball, the reason why health care and especially education is a mess is because we have a Conservative government in Alberta, it is not bad at all in B.C. I would predict there would be less money if we had a conservative government....and we will take our chances on it being better spent

The Liberal's in power in various provinces have done just as much damage to thier provincial economies as the conservatives ever could. At least the conservatives in Alberta have gotten this province out of debt so we have a chance to properly grow infrastructure in this province without being placed into crushing debt

Some of yoou guys rave about the Conservative government, but you don't remember that something like 10 conservative MP's spent time in Jail after Mulrooney's reign.

So politicians are corrupt, go figure. But the Conservatives did a lot of good when they were in power, a lot of the revenue increases and the ability to have a balanced or surplus federal budget were not the result of any kind of brilliant Liberal strategy, but about platforms put into place by the conservatives.

And your talking about 10 conservatives in jail, the only thing preventing the prosecution of Liberal's is the fact that they've managed to bury or buy thier way out of trouble. You can't tell me that the Adscam shouldn't result in criminal charges, or the Hewlett packard scandal, or the gun registry etc. the only thing that seperates the Liberals and the conservatives right now is who's in power and can control the courts and the RCMP, and the Liberal's have shown to be masters of it.

You claim you don't want to be the 52nd state of America so we need a military (which I agree), but we will be so far up the Americans ass if the conservatives come into power, we may just become the 52nd state officially(sarcasm). Our last conservative leader is resident of the U.S......fulltime.

I'd prefer that to p*ssing in the face of your largest trading power like the Liberal's have been doing, or p*ssing in the cereal of the people that a few points down you want to be in a position of protecting us if the crap hits the fan

Some want things changed but then you contradict yourself, and don't realize the consequences of having Conservatives in power will typically further deteriorate what you are trying to fix. Education for example...

Give me a break, placing the blame on the conservatives for the destruction of education is foolish at best even on a provincial level. If you look at liberal provincial governments they've struggled with that dragon as well and have done no better.

I like the U.S. as much as the next person, but I want to have some sovreignty, Military is one way. But truly we don't really have to worry, I don't think the U.S. is attacking Canada anytime soon and they will back us if we are attacked (no question being their biggest trading partner it is in there best interest whether they like us or not). I think the international community might get a little upset if U.S. did, seeing as how they are a little irate about what is going on in Iraq

If Canada is attacked and we've killed our our defense, do you think that the American's will be all that thrilled to watch thier soldiers die in defense of a country that's too lazy or stupid to formulate a active defense policy, I doubt it. They might be willing to see thier soldiers killed and maimed in a legitimate cause, but if something ever happens here, they'll hardly see it as legitimate.

And besides if the American's have to come to our defense it won't be out of the goodness of thier hearts as if they're defending an equal, there will be conditions, and there will be a sacrifice of our ability to make independant decisions.

And what makes you think that the American's really view us as thier largest and most essential trading partner anymore?

[EddyBeers]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Aug 31 2004, 12:10 AM

We're not talking a 8 billion dollar increase per year, thats a pie in the sky figure, we're talking 3 billion per year as an increase.

With the amount of spending gaffs per year by the current government, combined with extremely top heavy administration created by the Liberals since they got back into government, combined with the budget surpluses we can find three billion.

One of health cares biggest problems is its wasteful spending in its current configuration, the amount of dollars spent on it would work if funds went towards the systems as opposed to wages paid to the upper level leaches. We don't need 10 or 15 levels of management. I'm also all for billing people a small amount for non essential services.

Welfare needs to be overhauled and turned into a short term solution for people down on thier luck as opposed to a long term source of Income.

Business developement loans, and handouts to businesses has to go to private hands, no more handouts by the government.

Let AirCanada die, quit throwing money at it


Privatize things like the CBC and Canada post.

Kill the RCMP or downsize it

Legalize dope, and tax it like crazy

Everytime Sheila Fraser releases its audit we see pages and pages of stupid spending, its time for the government to find a way to hack expenses. In a country like Canada there should be no reliance on the government for any kind of money except for some healthcare spending, some infrastructure delivery and defense.

Well currently we spend 8.2 billion a year according to the figures that Cube put up, which equals 1.1 per cent of GDP as of 2002. Since it is now 2004 and the economy has been growing at about a 3 per cent clip since 2002, it would be safe to say that the number to get Canada to the conservative goal of 2 per cent would be 8 billion dollars. As for the rest of your post, I believe that it flies in the face of what most Canadians desire. The Reform/CA/Conservative party has been running on that platform for the last 4 elections, with appropriate success (with the exceptions of the RCMP plan and the dope plan). I still think your numbers would not add up. Canada Post is a profit making crown corp, and privatizing mail would be extreme even for Dubya. And the RCMP thing just does not make a lot of sense to me, I guess places like Beiseker would have to have town cops or something in order to provide for a better military, something that would certainly add to the costs for rural Canadians. And while I think the Libs will throw some money in the future at Air Canada, I do not think that they have in the past 11 years. Welfare is Ralph Klein's problem, it is in provincial jurisdiction.

[EddyBeers]

Originally posted by Thunderball@Aug 30 2004, 09:22 PM
Enough funding, if I am to understand correctly is to restore Military funding to pre-1993 levels. That seems to be the general concensus.

Frankly, what they are doing by cutting corners is simply wrong. I'd like to know where all the money they are diverting from National Defense is going, cause Healthcare is still a mess, post-secondary education is at an all-time high, provinces aren't receiving a whole lot more than before, large environmental initiatives aren't happening... what have they actually done.

As for the Pharmacare Program... maybe you didn't catch it cause they were making so many large claims, but Pharmacare was a predominantly NDP initiative that the left wing of the Liberals began to like, and they promised to "make it work within the system"... not even a month after, "umm... yeah can't work, sorry."

I do not think that they ever said that there would be a national pharmacare program funded by the federal government, but rather that they would work in concert with the premiers. What the premiers want is the feds to keep paying 41 per cent of health care, along with a national pharmacare program that would cost another 14 billion a year.

[Cowboy]

Hey I agree with the Conservatives they have done great in this province. But my position on this is reflective of my upbringing...The poor who can not afford to go to school, or will have second rate treatment in medical facilities (If that bill goes through) probably won't think so.

The Liberal's in power in various provinces have done just as much damage to thier provincial economies as the conservatives ever could.

Ahhhh...We are a super rich province, and we would be know matter whether Klein was here or not, a grade 12 graduate could run this province hands down...Oh he does. Comparing us to Liberal governments is the east is not exactly fair, they are not on the same playing field. But there health care is better there anyway, Alberta has the longest waits in Emergency rooms in Canada, I will look for a link to back that up but I did read it.

I'd prefer that to p*ssing in the face of your largest trading power like the Liberal's have been doing, or p*ssing in the cereal of the people that a few points down you want to be in a position of protecting us if the crap hits the fan

Well I would rather have pride and dignity knowing that I am not getting stomped all over by the bully in the playground. We have to take stands on some things, on is not supporting the War in Iraq, Canadians in general agreed with this and not just people from Quebec, Alberta's voice was a rarity in this country. Soft wood lumber is another, why should we make concessions to the Americans under the free trade agreement because they think we should..>There is going to be some rocky patches.

Give me a break, placing the blame on the conservatives for the destruction of education is foolish at best even on a provincial level. If you look at liberal provincial governments they've struggled with that dragon as well and have done no better.

It was a black and white difference when the Conservatives came in to power, I noticed it, they are responsible and to say different is condoning the fact that education is not important. Health care, well they had some help, but it deteriorated quicker than any other province.

And what makes you think that the American's really view us as thier largest and most essential trading partner anymore?

Economics kind of dictates that!!! We are their largest trading partner, and most important...its the way it is

If Canada is attacked and we've killed our our defense, do you think that the American's will be all that thrilled to watch thier soldiers die in defense of a country thats too lazy or stupid to formulate a active defense policy, I doubt it. They might be willing to see thier soldiers killed and maimed in a legitimate cause, but if something ever happens here, they'll hardly see it as legitimate.

And besides if the American's have to come to our defense it won't be out of the goodness of thier hearts as if they're defending an equal, there will be conditions, and there will be a sacrifice of our ability to make independant decisions.


Well I don't think it will only be Americans coming to our defence, Australia, France, Germany, Italy, England. The majority of the world does not stand with the U.S. side by side, but they do stand beside Canada side by side...However I still believe that Canada is in serious need of a military, and a good one,

[CaptainCrunch]

Well currently we spend 8.2 billion a year according to the figures that Cube put up, which equals 1.1 per cent of GDP as of 2002. Since it is now 2004 and the economy has been growing at about a 3 per cent clip since 2002, it would be safe to say that the number to get Canada to the conservative goal of 2 per cent would be 8 billion dollars. As for the rest of your post, I believe that it flies in the face of what most Canadians desire. The Reform/CA/Conservative party has been running on that platform for the last 4 elections, with appropriate success (with the exceptions of the RCMP plan and the dope plan). I still think your numbers would not add up. Canada Post is a profit making crown corp, and privatizing mail would be extreme even for Dubya. And the RCMP thing just does not make a lot of sense to me, I guess places like Beiseker would have to have town cops or something in order to provide for a better military, something that would certainly add to the costs for rural Canadians. And while I think the Libs will throw some money in the future at Air Canada, I do not think that they have in the past 11 years. Welfare is Ralph Klein's problem, it is in provincial jurisdiction.

The last hard figure that I saw before the election was a $ 3million dollar a year increase, which would actually get less expensive after we modernize the forces and lower maintenance costs.

why does it fly in the face of what Canadians want. do you think Canadians are ok, while our troops fly around in Helicopters that are one second from falling from the sky, do you think they have a great deal of pride when our soldiers are in Afganistan with forest colored camo's?

Canada post is only profitable via a fluke and via passing heavy costs on to the Canadian people, its robbing peter to pay Paul. Not only do our tax dollars go towards it, but every year we see a cost increase that is passed directly onto the Canadian people. Its in a non competitive vacuum because other companies are not allowed to compete with Canada post.

The RCMP's day as a national law enforcement agency is over, we saw that in thier lousy investigations of the federal government. The American's don't have a national police force made to garrison small towns. The RCMP can be symbolic, or maybe fulfill the same kind of role as the FBI, but we don't need thousands of these guys accross canada when there are better and more efficient ways to do things.

And again we haven't touched the point that the Canadian government is more than top heavy as far as management goes, we could probably save 5 or 6 billion a year by cutting our repetitive government departments and top level management where its not needed

[CaptainCrunch]

Hey I agree with the Conservatives they have done great in this province. But my position on this is reflective of my upbringing...The poor who can not afford to go to school, or will have second rate treatment in medical facilities (If that bill goes through) probably won't think so.

To me this is a non starter, people who want to go to school in this province will go to school, I haven't run into one person who hasen't been able to apply for a student loand to go to college. the day and age of universal free education is over, its just not affordable.

With healthcare I'm certainly not advocating two tier health care, but in cases of non emergancy care requirement, I have nothing against charging a user fee, just like I have no problem with private health care clinics for people that are willing to foot the cost as long as revenue goes to public healthcare.

I'd prefer that to p*ssing in the face of your largest trading power like the Liberal's have been doing, or p*ssing in the cereal of the people that a few points down you want to be in a position of protecting us if the crap hits the fan

Well I would rather have pride and dignity knowing that I am not getting stomped all over by the bully in the playground. We have to take stands on some things, on is not supporting the War in Iraq, Canadians in general agreed with this and not just people from Quebec, Alberta's voice was a rarity in this country. Soft wood lumber is another, why should we make concessions to the Americans under the free trade agreement because they think we should..>There is going to be some rocky patches.

[i]Canadians in general might not want the war in Iraq, but that does not mean that all Canadian's don't think it was the right thing to do.

I've never seen the American's bullying Canada, in fact if anything our government has acted like the 10 year old tough guy in this relationship. And why shouldn't american's ask for concessions on things like softwood, they have to look after thier economy first and foremost, and I have zero problems with that.

And the whole pride and dignity thing in international relations as Canada is concerned went ot the window a long time ago.

Give me a break, placing the blame on the conservatives for the destruction of education is foolish at best even on a provincial level. If you look at liberal provincial governments they've struggled with that dragon as well and have done no better.

It was a black and white difference when the Conservatives came in to power, I noticed it, they are responsible and to say different is condoning the fact that education is not important. Health care, well they had some help, but it deteriorated quicker than any other province.

And I could say that its a black and white difference since the Liberals came to power. If anything the provincial conservatives under Klein have stabilized this region, bought it out of debt and created a revenue positive budget so when its needed we don't have to screw ourselves into the ground if we have a revenue dry spell.

Provincial liberals and NDP have poor track records, its snake oil at its best to seperate out the conservatives as the evil entity in Canadian politics

And what makes you think that the American's really view us as thier largest and most essential trading partner anymore?

Economics kind of dictates that!!! We are their largest trading partner, and most important...its the way it is

I'll give you that, we are thier largest trading partner, hey wait thats thanks to the Conservative Government wow

If Canada is attacked and we've killed our our defense, do you think that the American's will be all that thrilled to watch thier soldiers die in defense of a country thats too lazy or stupid to formulate a active defense policy, I doubt it. They might be willing to see thier soldiers killed and maimed in a legitimate cause, but if something ever happens here, they'll hardly see it as legitimate.

And besides if the American's have to come to our defense it won't be out of the goodness of thier hearts as if they're defending an equal, there will be conditions, and there will be a sacrifice of our ability to make independant decisions.

Well I don't think it will only be Americans coming to our defence, Australia, France, Germany, Italy, England. The majority of the world does not stand with the U.S. side by side, but they do stand beside Canada side by side...However I still believe that Canada is in serious need of a military, and a good one,

[I]In time of crisis the world will stand side by side with the U.S., if the French, Germans, Italians, and English hit a crisis spot, who's the first country that they go to for help, the Americans.

And yippee if those nations had to come to our defense accross the ocean you don't think there would be even more costs involved then if the American's came to our aid?

I wouldn't want the French or the German's coming to our aid, they're worse than the American's, whats Italy got? Whats England got to spare?

You don't think if the stuff hits the fan they'll suddenly not have more important things to focus on then defending a sad sack nation that can't be bothered to have its own strength

[Thunderball]

I think its horrible for a sovereign nation to even have to entertain the concept of other people coming to its rescue, let alone have that in Page 1 of the Defense Strategy. Canada and Canadians should be ashamed that its coming to this.

[EddyBeers]

To me this is a non starter, people who want to go to school in this province will go to school, I haven't run into one person who hasen't been able to apply for a student loand to go to college. the day and age of universal free education is over, its just not affordable.

I bet you could find someone who could not afford law school, U of C is 10, 252 dollars in 2004 and going up and the maximum amount that you can receive through a student loan is 11, 600, leaving 1300 hundred dollars to live off of for 8 months, barring employment. This is also assuming that one does not buy law book or pay mandaroty student fees. With the cost of books and fees, you are looking at over 11, 600 dollars, more than the maximum loan. You would have to have a part time job making at least 1200 dollars a month to just live in the city of Calgary. Good luck studying while working 25 hours a week.

And why do they have to pay the "differential tuition fee", because they are supposedly going to make more money. Only in Alberta would someone assume that just because you are a lawyer or a doctor you will choose a career path where you make x amount of dollars. So much for legal work in the fields of human rights, civil liberties, crown prosecution and onward corporate law and oil and gas interests. What a joke.

My apologies as I digressed to all who want to talk military.