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Old 06-03-2016, 12:12 PM   #21
Bigtime
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Originally Posted by Stealth22 View Post
When you say WestJet, do you mean the 737's, or is he going to fly the Q400's for WestJet Encore?

By the way, don't we have a WestJet pilot on CP? Paging Ryan Coke...
My guess is that he is starting at Encore, but Ryan would be able to clear it up. I'm not even sure if WS is hiring direct into the 737's anymore now that they have Encore up and running.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:32 PM   #22
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I work for a company that rhymes with bestwet on the airplane that if you multiply by two ads up to 1474.

I have also worked the ramp, up northish and for another regional that rhymes with flazz.

I think that if he is seriously considering it, there is no limit to the amount of questions he should be asking. It is a very different career and career path. I both love it and am frustrated by it at times.

I am away on vacation right now (flight benefits!) But when I have time I'll try to put together a decent reply. You can also PM me as many questions as you like.

I'm a pretty casual poster on this board, but one thing I am passionate about is answering questions and discussing this career path with those that are considering it.

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Old 06-03-2016, 12:58 PM   #23
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My son, who is currently in Grade 11, has decided that he wants to be a Commercial Pilot.
I only have a PPL, but I'll throw in 2 bits based on what I understand. There is at least poster here who I believe is an ATPL holder who could provide the best insight.

I understand that a degree could be an advantage when compared to other applicants with similar experience but no degree. The applicants with the most experience (in particular type-specific experience) will generally have a leg-up though. Two of my flight instructors from 10 years ago I understand are both Air Canada captains now and neither had a degree. I just went back for some training and my flight instructor was just hired by a regional carrier - no degree, but ~1500 hours experience.

No idea if the flying schools provide any advantage or not. I personally don't know anyone who went that route.

As I understand it, some of the downsides to the military route are the length of time of the commitment, and you give up control (might not end up flying as much or the types of aircraft you hoped for). I understand that the guys that fly transports/ multi-crew end up with an easy transition to civilian work though.

Very few brand-new CPL holders find good work at the completion of training. The choices are generally working on a ramp towards a chance at right seat time, finding work patrolling pipelines, aerial survey, trucking skydivers ect or working as a flight instructor, all for very low wages.

Good luck to your son and hope it works out for him! I love to fly and it sounds like he does too.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:08 PM   #24
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He has investigated the Military route and while a possibility the pilots we have talked to cautioned against it (why, I don't know).
Who cautioned? Military or civilian?

I have yet to meet a military pilot who didn't enjoy his/her career. Sure, you'll hear complaints about this and that but, in the end, they're flying. If your son applies, gets accepted, and goes through all of the flight training, he has a long and enjoyable career to look forward to. At some point in time he can check out commercial air, but if it doesn't work out, he still has the Air Force.

Now, I won't sugar coat it, pilot recruiting is highly competitive and the training is difficult. If you are accepted, you have Air Crew Selection to get through, and that has less than a 40% pass rate.

If your son would like to have a read about what RCAF pilots think of the entire process, check out this link:

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,12744.0.html

There are over 50 pages of discussion with links to various topics like Air Crew Selection, ground school, fighters or transport or helos, which entry plan, etc, etc.

If the military option is still on the table, then I recommend going to the recruiting centre ASAP and get the paperwork going. IE, don't wait, as it's always beneficial to have another iron in the fire and there is no commitment in applying.

When it's all said and done, the typical day-in-the-life of an RCAF pilot is fly for an hour or two, bring the plane back broken, and go to the Officers' Mess and play beach volleyball for the rest of the day. Nothing wrong with that.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:24 PM   #25
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As I understand it, some of the downsides to the military route are the length of time of the commitment, and you give up control (might not end up flying as much or the types of aircraft you hoped for). I understand that the guys that fly transports/ multi-crew end up with an easy transition to civilian work though.
The entry plan determines the commitment.

The RMC graduate is 13 years, I believe. Maybe 11. This absolute as far as I know. But I think the 13 years includes RMC time.

I think the CEOTP route is seven years.

The Direct Entry Route (ie, you already have a degree and choose to join the military) doesn't really have a commitment because you paid for your own education. Your initial contract is nine years, but you can quit at any time.

Yes, the instructors will determine your path - helos, transport, fighter. However, I believe it is still true that the top student can still choose his/her path. Basically, the instructors know what's best and steer the pilot into the appropriate path. Those with the proper attitude will accept it and get on with it and, eventually, they realize that the instructor was right.

Those with the poor attitudes will moan and groan and obsess about it.
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:22 PM   #26
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To my knowledge, no Canadian airline requires a degree. I believe Air Canada says something about at least 2 years post secondary, but even there much of their hiring comes from Jazz, and Jazz doesn't have that requirement. Westjet doesn't have a post secondary requirement, however it is an asset.

He can do the flying through a club (I actually got my licenses through the Calgary Flying Club), then look to get some post secondary in something non aviation as a bit of a plan B. What the post secondary is in doesn't really matter. Or he can just go to a college program and get his 2 years while getting his licenses. Having a specific college program won't typically make a difference in getting a job. The biggest benefit to that type of program in the job market is the network that you develop with all your classmates. There is a group of you that are all helping each other get jobs, and that can last the rest of your career. If a person gets their licenses through a club that network tends to be much smaller.

I'd probably recommend a college program for that reason, and you get your 2 years of post secondary in case it is needed. But doing a flying club and maybe getting some education in another area that interests you is also an option.

Military is good, if you make it through aircrew selection. Most military pilots do their 20 years to get their good pension, then move on to an airline after that. It's good, if it's the route a person decides to go.

As others have said, the big thing is to be prepared for a number of years working low paying jobs trying to get to one of the top jobs. It can be a long road, and there's no guarantee you'll make it to a 'dream' job. But there are lots of different and still good jobs.

I've certainly had ups and downs in my career, but I've never regretted my choice. I've enjoyed the whole journey and I still enjoy going to work.

Feel free to ask me any more questions.
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:25 PM   #27
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My guess is that he is starting at Encore, but Ryan would be able to clear it up. I'm not even sure if WS is hiring direct into the 737's anymore now that they have Encore up and running.
They are still hiring direct onto the 737 as well as onto the Q400, position on the list is by date of hire though. But the goal is that everyone starts on the Q, then moves onto the 737. So he could've been hired onto either plane, but really either way he has been hired by Westjet.
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Old 06-04-2016, 07:49 AM   #28
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Other than the beach volleyball comment, no references to top gun.....

I feel the need.......
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Old 06-04-2016, 07:54 AM   #29
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I feel the need.......
...to read the CARs and learn about the electrical system of my Cessna 172?

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Old 06-04-2016, 12:42 PM   #30
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So to answer one of the posts he has been to the Military Recruiting center and we have talked to the Military representative at the Aviation Expo. We got the impression that if you are not a perfect specimen your chances are pretty slim. As for the journey he realizes he'll have to put his time in and is prepared for it. The issue still is how to get where he wants as there are so many options. We appreciate the comments so far. Leaning towards the Mount Royal option and the money we save on residence we can put towards more flying time as this seems to be critical. We did have an interesting conversation with a Woman who did Commercial Pilot testing with Transport Canada and has been flying for 40 + years. She mentioned that it was fine to learn to fly what she termed "Tricycle Planes" but if you really wanted to master flying, especially landings learn on a "TailDragger".
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Old 06-04-2016, 01:41 PM   #31
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Flying a taildragger is a blast, but your son can always get his PPL on the usual trainers (Cessna 172 or DA20) and while building commercial license hours get some flying in with one based in Springbank. That's what I did, flew a Citabria with Doug Jenkins out of YBW. Was so much fun and really made you sharpen up on the stick and rudder skills.
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Old 06-04-2016, 03:21 PM   #32
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Any kind of flying experience is fun, but flying a tail dragger will really do nothing for your career.

Not saying not to do it, just understand that specifically isn't going to provide some big long term benefit.

I will say that many different kinds of experience (types of airplanes and jobs) do give a tangible benefit and are good for becoming a well rounded and experienced pilot.

Last edited by Ryan Coke; 06-07-2016 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:23 PM   #33
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I think one of the first things he should do is ask himself what he wants to do. Does he want to be an airline pilot? Does he want to be a corporate pilot or does he want to go Military?

They all have pros and cons and different possible routes that you can take. I can only speak to the airline route as that is the route that I took. I can offer my opinion on the others if you like. I graduated the MRC Aviation program, then moved to Manitoba to work for Perimeter Aviation, then came back to the west to work for Jazz and am now working for Westjet.

The career progression part of the industry is undergoing a fundamental shift in how you may map out your career as a result of the birth of Westjet Encore and the recent Jazz\Air Canada agreement. It used to be that you would get your first job throwing bags and loading airplanes, working for the opportunity to get into a Na###o, King Air, Metro, Mu-2(shudder) or whatever equipment the guy who happened to give you the time of day had in his fleet. Then once you had the experience on your resume you would send it off to one of the airlines preferably delivered by a friend who already worked there. This is slowly changing.

Eventually the goal for the Westjet hiring team is to have all new hires at Westjet "mainline" come from Encore. So if you want to get to Westjet, you need to go through Encore. That's not a bad thing, but it can change the timing of your career decisions. For pay\seniority reasons, if the goal is the airlines, you should get in as soon as you can.

The situation is quite similar with Air Canada. Eventually 80% of all new hire classes at Air Canada will be comprised of folks from the Air Canada Express fleet (I think, someone can correct me if i'm wrong)

This leads me to my next point. One silly reality of this industry is that aside from your resume, you don't carry your experience with you from company to company for the purposes of pay and seniority, with some vary rare exceptions. You could be Sully Sullenberger and get hired by Jazz, but you're still bottom of the pile in seniority and starting at 38$\hr at 80hrs a month.

All well and good, but consider that you may work your first job for say 4 years. Lets say that takes you to 24. Then you get that job at Encore or Jazz. With the flow through you may not see the opportunity, if you want it to work for Westjet or Air Canada for another 5-6 years. So for the purposes of even numbers you're not starting at Westjet or Air Canada until you are 30 years old, at the first year pay rate of about 52k/yr. Its not a deal breaker by any means, but it is something that is important to understand.

As to the points about automation taking over our jobs, I'm certainly no expert on the matter but I can't imagine that happening any time soon. It would require the upheaval of the entire industry from ATC to above the wing to below the wing. Also if you consider that the first 737NG rolled off the line in 1996, it has many years left and the MAX's are just around the corner. The 787 is brand new, the A350 is just around the corner and the Cseries is slowly limping into the air.

I will try to add more later. In the general sense my post may seem to take a negative tone. I hope that doesn't appear to be the case. I try to just give the honest goods. I don't like the "sell job" that biased recruitment takes (not saying that anyone has done this) What is a fact is that I love this job. I sometimes miss the good ol days of flying up north, but I don't miss what comes with that. The best part of the job is the people, both the crews and the guests. It is not a stretch to say that in one 3 second interaction we can influence a customers decision on what airline they make their next ticket purchase. I love that.

I have realized that this post is more geared for about 5 years from now for your son. I will try to add more later on what he should be focused on in the more near future.
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Old 06-06-2016, 05:32 PM   #34
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Thank your very much for your post. As of right now an Airline Pilot is his ultimate goal. When I think back to my career it did not really start paying until I was 30 and I had experience. I also noticed that Airlines are starting "cadet" programs but I have not yet seen that in Canada.
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Old 06-06-2016, 05:57 PM   #35
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Expect the pay to be <40k until probably 30's. Regionals start pay around 36k a year.

Porter and Jazz both have cadet programs through colleges.

I did the college route and it was a good experience. However, I did 4 years in college, which is a long time during an industry thats cyclical. It's moving now so the earlier you get in and gain seniority the better.

sa226's post is on the money.
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Old 02-11-2018, 11:36 AM   #36
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My Son will be finished his first year at MRU in the Aviation Program in May. He is looking for a summer job within the aviation industry and I offered to post on CP. He only has his PPL so not looking to fly (although he could) but more helping out in some capacity like maintenance, scheduling or just any odd jobs like cleaning. He already has begun sending out a resume to most of the local aviation companies. He has to continue flying in the summer with MRU so job would have to be in the local YYC area. We can send off a resume if you PM me. Thanks!
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Old 02-11-2018, 12:00 PM   #37
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It's terrific that he knows what he wants at such a young age and is determined. He seems like a great kid. Good luck to him.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:31 AM   #38
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As someone who has been down this road, he needs to be sure his passion to fly is intense and unwavering.

His first few jobs will suck on a scale hard to equate in any other industry.

Regional, Northern operations, cargo will all work you to the bone for very little pay. They will take advantage of his passion to fly, it is the way the industry works.

Starting salary with a US regional can be as low as $20K US/year, an unreasonable sum to have any quality of life, and a crazy compensation given the levels of stress and responsibility. If he has to borrow money for training or building flight time, the financial situation gets even more dire.

Going the civilian aviation route, he will be pushing 30 before he is making a real living.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:43 AM   #39
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I've read that isn't the case anymore:

Quote:
A few decades ago, those in the industry say pilots needed upwards of 5,000 flying hours before a national airline would consider hiring them. Now the threshold is substantially lower. Recent job postings at WestJet Encore, for instance, only required 1,000 hours.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pilo...er-t-1.4451976
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:52 AM   #40
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I've read that isn't the case anymore:


http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pilo...er-t-1.4451976
Here is an unverified WestJet Encore payscale:
WESTJET ENCORE PILOT HOURLY RATE OF PAY

FIRST OFFICER
Step 1 Start Rate $38.00
Step 2 Completed one (1) year $38.76
Step 3 Completed two (2) years $39.54
Step 4 Completed three (3) Years $40.33

CAPTAIN
Step 1 Start Rate $68.00
Step 2 Completed one (1) year $69.36
Step 3 Completed two (2) years $70.75
Step 4 Completed three (3) Years $72.16

To get 1000 hours MULTI you will have worked about 4 years (minimum) getting driven into debt, or you have dropped $150K+ to build your hours. All to qualify to make $38/hr. I also wouldn't qualify Encore as a "national" airline, they are a regional, and they certainly pay like one.

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