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Old 06-01-2016, 09:38 AM   #21
Vulcan
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Seattle doesn't have an arena.
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Old 06-01-2016, 09:44 AM   #22
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Seattle doesn't have an arena.
Actually, Key Arena isn't that much worse than the Barclays Center where the Isles play (quite a bit older, but the sightlines for fans are bad in both arenas). Your point is valid, though, Seattle needs a new arena to lure back a NBA team first and then a NHL team might follow.
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Old 06-01-2016, 09:47 AM   #23
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If KeyArena is so terrible, why wouldn't a prospective Seattle team play in the Tacoma Dome until a new arena is finally finished? Couldn't that at least be a possibility?
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Old 06-01-2016, 09:50 AM   #24
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If KeyArena is so terrible, why wouldn't a prospective Seattle team play in the Tacoma Dome until a new arena is finally finished? Couldn't that at least be a possibility?
That was a discussion for a while, but then no suitable ownership group stepped up either.
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Old 06-01-2016, 09:54 AM   #25
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Real story here - why the #### is there a team in Carolina?
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Old 06-01-2016, 10:20 AM   #26
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Real story here - why the #### is there a team in Carolina?
Because someone was willing to own and operate a team in Carolina and the league was willing to allow it to happen.

Once you set aside the massive sense of entitlement people have, it is the exact same reason why there is a team in Calgary.

And on the flip side, the Jets left in 1996 and the Thrashers in 2011 because there was nobody capable of and willing to operate a team in those markets at those times. That may well become the fate of the Hurricanes too.

Especially if this lawsuit ends up creating a bankruptcy situation.
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Old 06-01-2016, 10:37 AM   #27
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That was a discussion for a while, but then no suitable ownership group stepped up either.
That could have been due to expansion fees being so high. Maybe someone steps up for relocation
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Old 06-01-2016, 11:18 AM   #28
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So, actually reading the lawsuit is pretty enlightening. Reporter's tend to miss some key points.

Key Point #1:
Karmanos Sr. executed legally binding agreements to transfer wealth to his sons in a tax efficient way. This is now legally part of their wealth.

Key Point #2:
Karmanos Sr. then subsequently took money out of the trust, in exchange for a promissory note ($180MM) executed in favor of the trust to pay back the principal and interest.

Key Point #3:
Karmanos Sr. then executed loan agreements with banks and the NHL to keep the Hurricanes afloat. As part of these loan agreements, he pledged as collateral further assets of the trust funds. In return for consent to doing so, he also executed multiple promissory notes to the Trust, agreeing to pay principal and interest.

Key Point #4:
Karmanos Sr. then took out another $70MM, and then executed another promissory note for $101MM in June 2013.

Key Point #5:
Karmanos Sr. hasn't paid a single installment principal or interest on the June 2013 promissory note.

While it is a family trust squabble, and the level of entitlement is ugly, the sons are completely within their rights to demand repayment of the promissory note due to default of interest and principal payments. The fact that they have held off since 2013 is remarkable. If it was any other business entity that was owed >$100MM, there is no way this wouldn't have occurred immediately after the first missed payment.

TL/DR: Karmanos Sr. shouldn't have transferred as much wealth as he did if he intended to just take it back.
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Old 06-01-2016, 11:36 AM   #29
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It's not "entitlement" when there's a written and signed contract.
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Old 06-01-2016, 12:02 PM   #30
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Real story here - why the #### is there a team in Carolina?
Same reason there was a gorilla in Cincinnati.
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Old 06-01-2016, 01:06 PM   #31
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It's not "entitlement" when there's a written and signed contract.
Being gifted $100MM? Yes, that's entitlement no matter how you slice it.
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Old 06-01-2016, 01:11 PM   #32
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My dad used to do it to me, and now that I have a son I get to do it to him but things like this have always happened...it's called "the dad tax" The father gives something to the child like a bag of chips or some popcorn and then proceeds to take their fair share a.k.a. the dad tax.

This is just on a much bigger scale.
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Old 06-01-2016, 01:15 PM   #33
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Being gifted $100MM? Yes, that's entitlement no matter how you slice it.
Being gifted $100M is not entitlement.

Entitlement is an attitude. Ie. suing your dad because he's not giving you money.
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Old 06-01-2016, 01:15 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Poe969 View Post
My dad used to do it to me, and now that I have a son I get to do it to him but things like this have always happened...it's called "the dad tax" The father gives something to the child like a bag of chips or some popcorn and then proceeds to take their fair share a.k.a. the dad tax.

This is just on a much bigger scale.
Life is full of little disappointments, learning about taxes when you're young is important.
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Old 06-01-2016, 01:16 PM   #35
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Being gifted $100MM? Yes, that's entitlement no matter how you slice it.
Good to know if Croflames had $100 million and someone else lost it, there would be no concern.
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Old 06-01-2016, 01:21 PM   #36
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What kind of financial wizard borrows money to buy a hockey team?

Whatever way you want to characterize it, it was his money, etc, he borrowed money to buy a long-term appreciating asset that generates annual operating losses.

Its no secret that the key in making any money in owning a hockey team comes from the appreciating value of the franchise and then selling it.

But in the meantime you've got loan payment responsibilities, operating expenses and interest.
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Old 06-01-2016, 01:22 PM   #37
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Life is full of little disappointments, learning about taxes when you're young is important.
My daughter and I sing the "NDP, go away, come again another day" song every night before bed.

It's important she learn at an early age about these things.
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Old 06-01-2016, 03:04 PM   #38
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same reason there was a gorilla in cincinnati.
rofl!
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Old 06-01-2016, 03:19 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke View Post
What kind of financial wizard borrows money to buy a hockey team?

Whatever way you want to characterize it, it was his money, etc, he borrowed money to buy a long-term appreciating asset that generates annual operating losses.

Its no secret that the key in making any money in owning a hockey team comes from the appreciating value of the franchise and then selling it.

But in the meantime you've got loan payment responsibilities, operating expenses and interest.
I'm not sure if he originally borrowed money to buy the team, but this 100+ million was to keep the team afloat. He has been owner of the franchise since 1994.
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Old 06-01-2016, 03:25 PM   #40
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Karmanos: I have no sons!!!!!!
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