Interesting Haynes article: Flames future bright

[Bandwagon In Flames]

It sounds like a lot of you are finally ready to accept that Hartley should be taking part of the blame this season. His system was great while it lasted, but as soon as the rest of the league caught on it stopped working. If he's not able to adapt then I'd say it's time for a new coach.

This team needs to learn how to score goals off the cycle. We have skilled players that can do more than dump, chase and score off the rush. Once the system starts dictating a cycle we'll start to have some consistent powerplay success.

Even his deployment of Ortio was atrocious to start the year. Only played him against power house teams instead of letting the rookie build up some confidence. Didn't give him much of a chance to prove himself and then just rode Ramo when he started to play decently. Hartley has too much loyalty to his vets on a team that's very obviously led by the young players, it's not acceptable.

[CsInMyBlood]

Mikeal Backlund
2015-16: Giveaways 41, Takeaways 56. Ratio: 0.73
2014-15: Giveaways 42, Takeaways 58. Ratio: 0.72

So what about Backlund?

[Monahan For Mayor]

Our systems are most definitely broken. It's extremely easy to intercept that stretch passes with tho all game/every game.

[Street Pharmacist]

The most annoying part of the system is watching how broken it is when the D has it behind the net and the opposition covers the other D. All other forwards are on the other side of the red line so the D with puck tries to wait out the forechecker who just stands there. Everyone knows you're passing it to one of the forwards literally standing at the Red line. There's no plan b or plan c

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The most annoying part of the system is watching how broken it is when the D has it being the net and the opposition covers the other D. All other forwards are on the other side of the red line so the D with puck tries to wait out the forechecker who just stands there. Everyone knows you're paying it to one of the forwards literally standing at the Red line. There's no plan b or plan c

Plan b is ice the puck, which has happened far too often this season.

[CedarMeter]

Ya, if we had Kipper in his prime we'd be going places. Cool article, good read.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Plan b is ice the puck, which has happened far too often this season.

That's honestly not plan b, it's just what happens when you force plan a and it doesn't work

[Vinny01]

There need to be major adjustments done by the coaching staff for next year. Gio and Dougie really struggled badly to start the season but have both come around substantially as the season progressed.

[Coach]

Monahan is thief!

[polak]

Yes, let the Hartley hate grow inside you.

Seriously though, you could tell the system had been exposed a while ago... There's no reason to keep him. Every part of his job this season has been a failure.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That's not how I read those numbers. If you are giving the puck away twice as often as you are taking it back, that probably means you have the puck most of the time to begin with.

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

That's a pretty weird way to look at it. Yes, you have to actually possess the puck in order to give it away, but how long are you holding onto it before giving it up, and how long does it take to get it back...if you ever do end up getting it back?

Turning the puck over twice as many times as you take it away is basically committing double the unforced errors as you force from the other team. That's never good.

It's an interesting discussion, and one that doesn't have the stats to demonstrate it definitively one way or the other right now. Perhaps when the puck tracking and camera technology gets to the point where a team's actual time of possession can be tracked, we'll know for sure. But for now, you can take the perspective that the Flames possess the puck more because of the turnover count. Possession proxies such as SAT% suggest the Flames do not possess the pucks as much as their opponents. Total shot blocks by the Flames (and missed shots by their opponents) would also suggest that they don't possess the puck as much as their opponents.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by polak

Yes, let the Hartley hate grow inside you.

Seriously though, you could tell the system had been exposed a while ago... There's no reason to keep him. Every part of his job this season has been a failure.

Disagree - he has done a great job coaching a team-first mentality and culture. Just based on listening to the players throughout last season and this. Which is pretty anecdotal I suppose.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Giving up the puck twice as often as you take it away is definitely not the norm and is very easily attributed to our dumb system.

It's true that typically players who are top-10 in take-aways are also top-10 in give-aways because of possessing the puck a lot, but the number is typically pretty even, not 2-to-1.

[heep223]

I'd be interested to see the ratios for other teams/other top players.

[Toonage]

I think in a way you're both right. Hartley has done an excellent job instilling work ethic and repairing the team culture. At the same time he and his coaching staff need to make fundamental changes to their game planning. Special teams for example.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Think you're being way too harsh and dramatic.

We could say the same things of Duncan Keith and Brent Seabrook based on just the games we saw Calgary play them this season. Great players (especially defenders) who play 20 to 25+ minutes are going to get burned from time to time.

Of all the things he said, I don't see that as an issue at all.

Dramatic is not the appropriate word, it would be better described as matter of fact. Nice that you don't see it as an issue.

Fact is that the team has had a poor year defensively and the top D can not be insulated from the blame. And the examples I cited for Dougie were all goals that were key events in games that resulted in the Flames losing points.

On the subject of turnovers vs takeaways in this thread. I appreciate the spirit of trying to justify that in order to turn the puck over, you must have it.

But all you have to do is listen to Hartley's post game pressers. Often he describes that a turnover that results in a goal against.

The reality check - turnovers are way up, goals against are way up, and the team performance is way worse year over year.

The team has crap results this year and it is not in spite of the top 3D having been bulletproof, or because their high turnover numbers extrapolate to indicate superior possession.

These things are what they are. Data points indicating poor performance that translate to poor results.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That's not how I read those numbers. If you are giving the puck away twice as often as you are taking it back, that probably means you have the puck most of the time to begin with.

Theoretically I can see where that could come from, but as a fan watching a lot of the games this year, I don't believe that for a second unfortunately.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Flames should have the highest representation of players on the U24 team at the World Cup as it will be ridiculous if Hamilton is left off the roster.

Hopefully over the next 3 games both Monahan and Bennett find a way to score 3 goals each and Johnny can get 5pts.

Having a 3rd straight year with a rookie scoring 20. The team already has a second straight year when a sophmore scores 30. Having a player have 2 30 goal seasons before he turns 22 would be awesome.

If Matthews somehow falls in the lap of this franchise and a goalie upgrade occurs I feel they will be cup contenders very soon

If this team lucks out and somehow wins the lottery, it's only a matter of time. And that's not Oilers talk. This team has a true #1, 2 and 3 on the blue line, and forwards that can play at both ends of the rink. It's night and day with the exception of goaltending.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Toonage

I think in a way you're both right. Hartley has done an excellent job instilling work ethic and repairing the team culture. At the same time he and his coaching staff need to make fundamental changes to their game planning. Special teams for example.

Hartley and co. need to do a lot of coaching homework over the summer if they're to stick around into next season.

Adjustments need to be made.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by heep223

Disagree - he has done a great job coaching a team-first mentality and culture. Just based on listening to the players throughout last season and this. Which is pretty anecdotal I suppose.

Like other professionals, there are different elements to coaching that some excel at and others they don't.

Coaching isn't inspiring people. It's not x's and o's, and it's not personnel management, time management or practice malarkey. It's all of those things.

Hartley was the perfect coach for the initial stage of a rebuild: work ethic and setting expectations. He's awful at the next stage as evidenced by line selection and game planning.

Because he's good at one thing doesn't preclude being bad at another