High Flying Defense: Good or Bad? - Page 2 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Fan in Exile · 03-31-2016, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dino7c

Does anyone out there seriously NOT think goal tending is the Flames number one issue? They have problems elsewhere but until that is solved its hard to really judge anything else. Ortio is by far our best option at the moment and he had terrible numbers in the AHL this season

I agree it's the Flames number one issue. However, there are a lot of other shortcomings with this team that have very little to do with goaltending.

Poe969 · 03-31-2016, 12:24 PM

I think goal tending was the Flames biggest problem but isn't really their biggest issue. This year it sucked but it should be an pretty easy fix, there are a few decent UFA's and there will likely be a few goalies made available through trade because of the expansion draft. It has to be fixed but it isn't that big of an issue because it's likely fixed with getting one player. The teams size and toughness seems to be a bigger issue IMO and I think the Flames need someone with size and grit in their top 6 but I think they need a solid stay at home defender for their top 4.

I like the high flying defense style but I just don't think the D corps has enough size that can move the other team around.

mikephoen · 03-31-2016, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I actually think Drew Doughty has become a better player under Darryl Sutter compared to the player he was prior which was more in the style of Flames defenders today. I don't think the Flames need to go to a trap style of defense but there has to be more structure to their game than always looking up ice to make a quick transition before you even have the puck.

Put Doughty in front of Hiller and he would look more like Justin Shultz than a Norris candidate.

dino7c · 03-31-2016, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

There's not a single team in the group running for last overall that is sitting there because of only one reason.

who said that...I said goal tending is the biggest issue not the only issue. Goal Tending is the most important position in hockey and we have the worst by a country mile. The Oilers have the worst D in the entire league and Talbot has won them multiple games...when was the last time a Flames goal tender stole a game?

Street Pharmacist · 03-31-2016, 12:34 PM

The problem isn't defense. Just like the reason the oilers can't score has little to do with their forwards and a lot to do with defensemen, I think partly the reverse is true with the Flames. The bigger issue is style. The flames play high event hockey like Ottawa, Dallas, and Colorado. A big problem with that is the unpredictable nature of the results. The biggest problem is those teams never win the cup. Name the last non top 5 defensive team to win the cup...

Awful special teams, poor defensive play from all 5 on the ice regularly and had scratching deployment aren't going to get the flames to the promise land. The only way forward is a new coach. Full stop.

dino7c · 03-31-2016, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Put Doughty in front of Hiller and he would look more like Justin Shultz than a Norris candidate.

Quick makes miraculous saves nightly...those go in the net and lots of guys numbers don't look so hot, including the overall record of the team.

Frank MetaMusil · 03-31-2016, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The problem isn't defense. Just like the reason the oilers can't score has little to do with their forwards and a lot to do with defensemen, I think partly the reverse is true with the Flames. The bigger issue is style. The flames play high event hockey like Ottawa, Dallas, and Colorado. A big problem with that is the unpredictable nature of the results. The biggest problem is those teams never win the cup. Name the last non top 5 defensive team to win the cup...

Awful special teams, poor defensive play from all 5 on the ice regularly and had scratching deployment aren't going to get the flames to the promise land. The only way forward is a new coach. Full stop.

Boston in 2012.

dino7c · 03-31-2016, 12:44 PM

All I am saying is with good goal tending you will get a better read on things...every team has breakdowns, problem for us is every single one ends up in the back of the net

SuperMatt18 · 03-31-2016, 12:46 PM

Yeah the goaltending is the biggest issue but defensive zone coverage is poor as well, and the bad PK really magnifies that.

Goaltending is horrendous though. Our team save percentage is now 12 points lower then the next worst team in the league. Even just getting goaltending on par with the next worst team would be 26 fewer goals against, and would move us to only a -8 goal differential.

If we had a .910 save percentage, which is still below average, we would have allowed 44 fewer goals. That means we are a positive goal differential team and are most likely in the playoff hunt.

Even with that improvement though we would still be middle of the pack defensively and would rank 16th in goals against. So still lots of room for improvement, even with improved goaltending.

GioforPM · 03-31-2016, 12:50 PM

It's true that the play in the defensive zone can be lacking. That's to some degree taking the bad with the good as far as choosing to have skilled but less physical D goes. Sort of like living with Karlsson defensively because you know what you get offensively. Sure I'd love a Regher back there - what team wouldn't?

The problem this year is that the goaltending isn't good enough to make the defensive problems a manageable problem. Last year Brodie made more defensive miscues than this year IMO. But Ramo and Hiller were generally up to the task (and Ortio in his 6 game span).

I also think Jokipakka and Wotherspoon can provide some solid, if not punishing, defence.

Street Pharmacist · 03-31-2016, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Boston in 2012.

They were 6th, so fair enough. I don't think that changes my point

Frank MetaMusil · 03-31-2016, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

They were 6th, so fair enough. I don't think that changes my point

It's obvious that top defensive teams will have a better chance to win it all. I was actually curious myself and wanted to look it up.

CSharp · 03-31-2016, 01:11 PM

I think offense is always good, but the Flames can't play or hit a thing in their own zone. Guys like Stajan constantly turn over the puck trying to get out of the defensive zone and that usually leads to a goal from the other team. This team needs a couple of Regehr type d-men to make opponents think twice about going into the Flames end.

GranteedEV · 03-31-2016, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dino7c

Does anyone out there seriously NOT think goal tending is the Flames number one issue?

I don't think goaltending is our number one issue. It's an issue, particularily when Hiller/Backstrom are in net, but when Ramo/Ortio are in net it's not what separates us from, say, the Sharks. It really is how the skaters play.

Things like a lack of offensive zone puck support on the perimeter (everybody crashes the net leading to telegraphed centering passes), wholesale line changes after dump ins (allowing the opponent to waltz into our zone without setting up pressure), an unpredictable methodology of beating neutral zone pressure (centers flying the zone hoping stretch pass), telegraphed breakouts (quality teams actually DO break out through the middle of the ice, every breakout isn't done along the walls), players who don't tie up sticks of dangerous scoring options (Giordano seems to be the only guy on this team willing to do so), leaving the screen man alone and just trying to front the entry, and generally giving the opponent too much time and space on the cycle, hoping for a save rather than breaking the cycle up and getting the puck ahead.

The one thing that isn't an issue, is defensemen jumping into the rush when the opportunity is there. Getting offense from the blue line is good. You don't need to sacrifice everything else to do it though.

Am I as convinced as Street Pharmacist that all of this is Hartley's fault? No, some of it is, some of it is the personnel. Whether it's experience, talent, or bad habits, this core has to get better. Some of it is definitely Hartley too. Last season he was afraid of trying Schlemko out as a top 4 D, this season he's doing the same with Nakladal. I get that Nakladal isn't a proven top 4 D and likewise with Schlemko, but these are the sort of little decisions that add up into a team that's always chasing the puck.

Flames Draft Watcher · 03-31-2016, 01:26 PM

Sorry but I thought I saw someone say goaltending isn't the #1 issue. They must be joking with us.

polak · 03-31-2016, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Sorry but I thought I saw someone say goaltending isn't the #1 issue. They must be joking with us.

Well he has a point. When Ramo and Ortio are in net, Goaltending really isn't an issue. It's not a strength, but those two don't usually let in bad goals let alone cost us games.

Cali Panthers Fan · 03-31-2016, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I don't think goaltending is our number one issue. It's an issue, particularily when Hiller/Backstrom are in net, but when Ramo/Ortio are in net it's not what separates us from, say, the Sharks. It really is how the skaters play.

Things like a lack of offensive zone puck support on the perimeter (everybody crashes the net leading to telegraphed centering passes), wholesale line changes after dump ins (allowing the opponent to waltz into our zone without setting up pressure), an unpredictable methodology of beating neutral zone pressure (centers flying the zone hoping stretch pass), telegraphed breakouts (quality teams actually DO break out through the middle of the ice, every breakout isn't done along the walls), players who don't tie up sticks of dangerous scoring options (Giordano seems to be the only guy on this team willing to do so), leaving the screen man alone and just trying to front the entry, and generally giving the opponent too much time and space on the cycle, hoping for a save rather than breaking the cycle up and getting the puck ahead.

The one thing that isn't an issue, is defensemen jumping into the rush when the opportunity is there. Getting offense from the blue line is good. You don't need to sacrifice everything else to do it though.

Am I as convinced as Street Pharmacist that all of this is Hartley's fault? No, some of it is, some of it is the personnel. Whether it's experience, talent, or bad habits, this core has to get better. Some of it is definitely Hartley too. Last season he was afraid of trying Schlemko out as a top 4 D, this season he's doing the same with Nakladal. I get that Nakladal isn't a proven top 4 D and likewise with Schlemko, but these are the sort of little decisions that add up into a team that's always chasing the puck.

OMG.

First of all, goaltending is 100% the biggest issue for this team. I don't know how you can't readily admit that.

Secondly, this is a smaller quibble, but Nakladal still struggles with defensive coverage and recognition of the play. He's getting better, but I don't think he deserves top 4 minutes, regardless of what the advanced stats say.

Schlemko was fine on the bottom pairing, but when playing against better competition he was exposed pretty regularly. Like in Jersey this year, he's a decent offensive contributor, but he has the 2nd worst +/- on their team (ahead of only Tootoo) due to him being played above his head.

Nakladal is fine for now as a 3rd pairing guy that can shoot the puck on the PP. He's not ready for anything more just yet.

Flames Draft Watcher · 03-31-2016, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polak

Well he has a point. When Ramo and Ortio are in net, Goaltending really isn't an issue. It's not a strength, but those two don't usually let in bad goals let alone cost us games.

It's less of an issue because they are not completely incompetent at their jobs. But those guys don't steal many games. They aren't above average goaltenders.

Goaltending is quite clearly and obviously the biggest issue this team has. It's so obvious that I'm quite befuddled when anyone who closely follows this team denies it. I thought it was the one thing all Flames fans could agree with. Apparently not.

Frank MetaMusil · 03-31-2016, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polak

Well he has a point. When Ramo and Ortio are in net, Goaltending really isn't an issue. It's not a strength, but those two don't usually let in bad goals let alone cost us games.

Ramo was crap to start the season. He was costing the team games.

At the time Ramo was put on waivers, he was 0-3 with an .879 sv%. Hillers was .867 sv% (even worse, yet Treliving decided on him over Ramo)

I'm tired of the GM escaping blame on this. Hiller has sucked all year and everyone knew this.

Erick Estrada · 03-31-2016, 02:00 PM

Goaltending is the largest issue but when you finish close to 30th you are more than one player away from being a quality team. Oilers fans said goaltending was their biggest issue last season and accordingly the new management addressed that by bringing in two new goaltenders and running Scrivens out of town. Guess what? Talbot has been very good for the Oilers this season and they are going to finish lower in the standings than last season.

The focus has to be on improving team play over simply upgrading at individual positions as the Oilers found out this season. Their forwards are soft, one way players and their defensemen don't play well in their own end. The Flames have better personnel on defense but the situations are somewhat similar in that the forwards aren't great defensively and the defensemen struggle in their own end. Still lots of work to do and next season should be better but don't expect playoffs unless they overachieve again.