Are the Flames a "soft" team?

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

In every sense of the word they are too soft.

They don't initiate to their own advantage
They don't stick up for one another when other teams do
They can't handle physical teams.

Part of it is finding big guys who can play. I think that's getting better
Another part of it is their leaders need to grow a pair - or they need to find new leaders. Bennet might help with that. If he can be an occasiobnally dirty prick a la Keith or brown or Perry, and Monahan or someone can at least push back when other teams start, they'll be ok.

[Azhouse]

Yes.

[Karl]

Absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt they are.

[timbit]

Specifically, which players do posters consider "soft"?
Which players do posters consider "not soft"?

[PeteMoss]

Every team is soft according to the definition of some. No one on the Blackhawks runs around and tackles people whenever someone goes near Kane. If there's a scrum - people will get involved. Its hockey. Gaudreau's going to get whacked and its not like Bollig going over to Keith is going to lead to anything since Keith isn't going fight Bollig or anyone else.

[Gaskal]

My answer is yes. Certain players need to have more of a mean streak.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by timbit

Specifically, which players do posters consider "soft"?
Which players do posters consider "not soft"?

We've moved/demoted the softest players we had to start the year. Hudler and Raymond were our two softest players. So we've gotten less soft.

On defense Engelland is the most physical, punishing defenseman we have. Jokipakka uses his size well but is not as mean a hitter as Regehr was. So those are the two we have that are physical, hard defensemen. Those are the defensemen who would primarily beat forwards by rubbing them out, physically containing them, shoving them down, keeping them to the outside, clearing them out from the front of the net, etc.

On defense I guess you'd say Hamilton plays kind of a soft game for his size. Rarely uses his size and strength to physically dominate other players through pushing, shoving, crosschecking, hitting. Brodie doesn't play a physical style but he doesn't need to to be effective. Giordano plays quite a hard game but his average size means he can't overpower bigger forwards. Wotherspoon is showing a bit of a heavier game than before but I wouldn't consider him a real banger. Nakladal doesn't seem scared to mix it up a bit but his primary way of defending is not by physically overpowering forwards.

Overall I'd say the defense has a pretty good balance. All of our defensemen need to be puck movers to fit in Hartley's system and they all are. But I think some posters don't recognize how Engelland's skill set wasn't duplicated until we got Jokipakka, he was one of the only defensemen we had who was capable of making life miserable for big forwards in front of the net or along the boards.

Up front I'd consider Bouma, Jooris, Ferland, Bollig, Hathaway and Bennett to be our grittiest, most physical, punishing forwards. Bennett's going to need another 10 pounds to play that style. Gaudreau and Stajan are probably our least physical forwards although Johnny tries to hit but his body size means it makes negligible impact. Colborne has greatly improved in terms of throwing some hits, uses his body to shield the puck, driving the net but he isn't naturally a physical forward. Frolik and Backlund won't shy away from board battles but they beat opponents through skill and smarts rather than sheer strength and physicality. Monahan plays a partially soft game for his size, rarely finishing checks but he doesn't shy away from driving the slot or fighting for the puck. He's not a naturally physical player but he'll fight through checking.

Overall I'd say we're not soft. Our greatest strength is competitiveness as even our smaller, less physical players compete hard and consistently. If we do ever trade Engelland we'll probably need to look at adding a big, strong, physical defensive defenseman to replace his role. Right now we probably need a power forward on the Gaudreau/Monahan line to make space for them and stick up for them. And we need another power forward for Bennett's line to do the same.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This thread isn't bout fighting though, it's about team toughness and sticking up for your team-mates.

Toews jumping on Hamilton after Hamilton was on top of Seabrook, is exactly the kind of response the Flames lack

Except for how Jooris jumped on top of Kadri the same way like, two games ago?

[PepsiFree]

I think Hartley just coaches a soft game with the intention of coaching a disciplined one. Trouble is, there is a fine line between disciplined and soft.

Regardless it's a non-issue I think. Plays like Jooris sticking up for Johnny and Monahan passing his hat-trick goal off to Frolik do just as much for the team than getting into every scrum would.

[Strange Brew]

Multiple ways to define soft. Some teams play with an aggressive fore heck that punished the other teams defenders. Those teams can be hard to play against over an extended series as they wear you down. The Flamesdont play like that. More of a counterattack team. Doesn't mean they're soft it I do think they are relatively easy to play against.

[Alberta_Beef]

soft like warm butter

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Except for how Jooris jumped on top of Kadri the same way like, two games ago?

Meh, it is pretty safe to challenge a big mouthed turtle.

Team is soft. None of the players who impact the outcome of games in a positive way are physical.

Hathaway is the only forward that plays the way that could contribute to wearing down the opposing D.

Engelland is the only guy who makes life difficult in front of the net. Maybe Jokipakka now.

Nobody wins board battles like Iggy did. Johnny wins some board battles by being sneaky and hard to hit, able to dart in and out, but nobody else has that skill set.

Teams don't leave knowing they fought hard to earn a win.

[Vulcan]

I still say that hockey is a game of intimidation and if you can't hold your own in the out of town games, you're too soft. The Flames have the worst away record in the league.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Meh, it is pretty safe to challenge a big mouthed turtle.

Because Challenging a 22 year old finesse player (Dougie Hamilton) is an example of toughness?

The double standards are ridiculous.

Nobody wins board battles like Iggy did.

I'll agree with this, but the only players in the league who can now do along the boards what Iggy did are basically Benn and Crosby. Maybe a handful others. But it's an unrealistic standard.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I still say that hockey is a game of intimidation and if you can't hold your own in the out of town games, you're too soft. The Flames have the worst away record in the league.

Are the sharks the hardest team then?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Because Challenging a 22 year old finesse player (Dougie Hamilton) is an example of toughness?

The double standards are ridiculous

Think you may be overthinking that one. Was a shot at pathetic Kadri.

But yeah, I guess you could say Toews challenging Hamilton would be a bit more risky to one's potential wellbeing than anyone challenging Kadri. Hamilton might stand up and fight back.

[browna]

They don't have a soft roster, but they certainly are playing "soft". Someone takes the stick to your star player in the fashion was done last night, you respond 10/10 in some fashion within the next few minutes. Nothing from the Flames.

IMO that's not due to vets not knowing what they're role should be, or young guys not knowing how to respond, and especially with nothing left to play for this season other than pride; it's been how they've been instructed to respond.

[CliffFletcher]

Yes. And it has nothing to do with fighting. Our top players rarely, if ever, initiate contact. And our d cannot stand up to big teams cycling in our zone and driving the net.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Because Challenging a 22 year old finesse player (Dougie Hamilton) is an example of toughness?

The fact our biggest player is one of the softest on the team is part of the problem. You need at least a couple players in your top six who can play a physical game. The Hawks are considered a finesse team, but between Toews, Seabrook, and Keith, they're tougher than the Flames. The Flames have Gio (kind of) and hopefully Bennett once he becomes a mainstay.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Except for how Jooris jumped on top of Kadri the same way like, two games ago?

The Jooris reaction was awesome. Unfortunately, it was the exception, not the norm