Turning Down a Job Offer

[Tron_fdc]

Well, we just hired a secretary at 35k.......and she's only a high school grad.

Either we're overpaying, or you're underestimating your market value. 35-40k right now is fataall, especially for someone with an Engineering degree.

[JiriHrdina]

Congrats on the offer dude.

My only advice is that compensation is but one piece of the puzzle so its difficult to say for sure what you should do without understanding how good the job is, long-term opportunities and other "intangibles". That being said - if you're gut is telling you that you need more dough than your gut is probably right.

From an employer's perspective I'd rather have a guy be upfront about needing more cash off the start rather than coming back into my office 3 months later to ask for more. That ticks me off.

Edit although I just noticed that there is a salary review set after 3 months. That's not bad. If you think you can prove yourself after 3 months then you could see yourself at the level you want to be at very quickly.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Hey Kermit,
Congrats on the job offer.
If you don't like the salary, you of course have the right to ask for a higher salary. However, I wouldn't counter offer unless you are sure you won't take the job for the $36, 500 that they've offered you, because it's not completely unheard of for companies to say "Well we received your counter offer, Thank you and good luck in the future with whoever wants to pay you that".

Also, I'd find out what kind of salary you could get bumped to after the 3 months. Who knows, maybe you'll get a 20% raise if you're doing a good job. It may be worth it to tough it out for three months.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally posted by fotze+Aug 30 2005, 12:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fotze @ Aug 30 2005, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JiriHrdina@Aug 30 2005, 12:32 PM
My only advice is that compensation is but one piece of the puzzle so its difficult to say for sure what you should do without understanding how good the job is, long-term opportunities and other "intangibles".

That sounds exactly what our human resources department told the secretarial staff after getting no raise this year. I get the feeling you have had to break the same news before. What is the messageboard equivalent of clearing the throat while mumbling bullshinguard. [/b][/quote]
Well put it this way. After watching Office Space I was constantly aware of making sure I didn't sound like Gary Cole. Though I'm not sure I was always successful.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally posted by fotze@Aug 30 2005, 06:23 PM
Engineers are totally underpaid as it is (and you non-engineers,

Actually Engineers do screw themselves when it comes time to get paid. But it's because they generally are too damn stubborn or arrogant to realize it. In fact it's likely due to the fact that a lot of them have very poor interpersonal skills and hence don't know how to negotiate a good deal for themselves. If they were better sales folk, they'd know how to get paid.

Topic at hand.

See if you can bring the money up. But just because you have one job doesn't mean you can't get another one. The easiest way to get yourself at least a 10% raise every year is to either leave, or threaten to leave your company for another job. Getting your foot in the door right now is what you want to do though. I mean what good will it do you to hold out three months for a job that will pay 3500 more per year and miss out on $10k in earnings plus 3 months of experience that is worth a lot more than that. Not to mention with a small company they likely have to make conservative estimates to start off, so after 3 months you might find that they do move you up to your targeted rate. Also the bonuses could turn out to be pretty good too. I used to work for a smaller company and the bonuses were great.

[kermitology]

For reference.. the bonuses in good years were quoted to me as 20-25% of the base salary.. which would put me over 45k.. After 12 months I'd become eligible for it though.

I tried to get some information about the 3 month review and it was brushed aside. A friend of mine in Vancouver said that they offer 35k to start and after 3 months usually bump it up to 40k

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally posted by fotze@Aug 30 2005, 03:23 PM
Engineers are totally underpaid as it is (and you non-engineers, don't argue about this cause I won't respond).

Engineers are overpaid! $40k to start, you should be getting $40 a week, just enough to keep bread and milk on the table.

(only arguing because I know that fotze won't respond therefore I win by default... ahhh the two sweetest words in the English language De - Fault, De - Fault, De - Fault!)

[Sylvanfan]

Originally posted by kermitology@Aug 30 2005, 06:44 PM
For reference.. the bonuses in good years were quoted to me as 20-25% of the base salary.. which would put me over 45k.. After 12 months I'd become eligible for it though.

I tried to get some information about the 3 month review and it was brushed aside. A friend of mine in Vancouver said that they offer 35k to start and after 3 months usually bump it up to 40k

Well if you tell them at your three month review that you have another job that you're thinking of taking theres a good chance they'll bring your wage up. No company wants to invest three months bringing a new employee up to speed only to lose him because they wouldn't pay up. Think of it this way, if you work 3 months at 36500, and than the next 9 at a rate of say $41,500 than you'll end up with more than the 40,000 you're targeting. Than after 12 months you qualify for 25% of a higher rate in bonuses.

[Frequitude]

What a perfect post Kermit. I'm just about to start looking for work in the city as an EE as well. I graduated last spring and then spent a year working at a research company in Vienna.

I spoke with the old head of the Electrical department at Colt Engineering yesterday. He said they would pay someone like me a little bit more than what the apegga site would recommend. He gave me a rough number of 3800-4000 per month, or around 45k-50k per year. It was just a quick informal conversation because he's moved up to manage some big projects, so I don't know about bonuses etc.

What is the best resource for a non UofC grad to find EE work in this city. I know there are tons of jobs out there, but is there one site/office that has lots compiled?

I'm also thinking about emailing/faxing my resume to a bunch of HR departments around the city.

[Eagle Eye]

Well engineers in oil and gas (reservoir engineers, facilities ect) make some pretty good coin to start (60k or so). I am a reservoir Engineering Technologist and I made $42k when I started 4 years ago. So that does seem low for an engineer.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally posted by Eagle Eye@Aug 30 2005, 07:06 PM
Well engineers in oil and gas (reservoir engineers, facilities ect) make some pretty good coin to start (60k or so). I am a reservoir Engineering Technologist and I made $42k when I started 4 years ago. So that does seem low for an engineer.

sounds like you worked at the EUB?

[Eagle Eye]

Originally posted by TheyCallMeBruce@Aug 30 2005, 12:13 PM
sounds like you worked at the EUB?

ummm no, but I did have an interview with them once, they probably pay the worst out of anyone that I have seen in this industry

[CaptainCrunch]

Funny thing, I recently got into the HR consulting side of the business recently, and I've had some pretty interesting conversations with clients over the last few weeks

1) Calgary has a 3.5% unemployment rate, in essence that means that there are more jobs then people. the hardest hit areas are in General Labour, sales, and accounting roles. Technical roles (IE engineering etc) are not feeling the same crunch.

2) Because of the unemployment rate, Calgary is now considered a sellers market, however you can't be a seller if your not in a position of strength, don't lie about having another offer things like that always kick you in the balls especially if you under perform in your first three months.

3) Find out what the average salary is in your industry, also find out what the high end is and compare and contrast it to your skills. You need to negotiate not bluff. I'll always know that your bluffing.

4) Unless a organization really really wants you and recognizes how much your going to add to thier team, thier initial offer is going to be low, and your going to have to fight hard to get it up.

5) Always reject the first offer, I've never accepted a first offer, be polite and ask then how they arrived at thier figure. If they say industry average, you can counter with your research, if they say its what thier organization pays, find out if you can get a top performer summary about thier best person making that kind of money.

6) Don't be afraid to walk away, even if you don't have a safety net, just don't go crawling back if they don't call you.

7) Accept the offer with a rider in the offer that you want to re-open negotiations at the end of the three month probationary period if you hit or exceed some reasonable benchmarks.

Thats all I have for now, PM me if you want to ask questions.

[SoulOfTheFlame]

Ask for more. If they don't give it to you take it until you find something better.

[cheung31]

Originally posted by SoulOfTheFlame@Aug 30 2005, 01:46 PM
Ask for more. If they don't give it to you take it until you find something better.

i agree. i'd try and rake in any cash i can grab at the moment if it's more than my current job.

and in the meantime start job hunting so you can find better deal with another company.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally posted by Eagle Eye+Aug 30 2005, 07:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Eagle Eye @ Aug 30 2005, 07:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TheyCallMeBruce@Aug 30 2005, 12:13 PM
sounds like you worked at the EUB?

ummm no, but I did have an interview with them once, they probably pay the worst out of anyone that I have seen in this industry [/b][/quote]
$42k is what the EUB paid for starting wages. Yes, very low indeed. That's why I was wondering if you started with them.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Why not ask them to either waive or reduce the waiting period for the bonuses? Or you could just take the job and keep looking for something more lucrative. If and when something better comes along you can ask them to match. If they don't you move on to the better paying job.

Taking it now means building up your experience quicker and getting something for your time instead of nothing. There's nothing stopping you from quitting and taking a better paying if the opportunity presents itself in a week or a month down the road.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally posted by cheung31+Aug 30 2005, 02:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cheung31 @ Aug 30 2005, 02:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SoulOfTheFlame@Aug 30 2005, 01:46 PM
Ask for more. If they don't give it to you take it until you find something better.

i agree. i'd try and rake in any cash i can grab at the moment if it's more than my current job.

and in the meantime start job hunting so you can find better deal with another company. [/b][/quote]
The only thing I would caution regarding this strategy is too much "hopping around" can look bad on the resume.

When I'm hiring someone one of the things I look for is that the person has spent a good amount of time at the companies they have worked for. I'm not talking 10 years - but certainly 1-3 years. If I see someone with a pile of companies in the 6 month range then that sends red flags up for me.

Of course in this case its early in Kermit's career so he can afford to do it to an extent....as long as he sticks with the 2nd company. Its just something to be aware of though.

[kermitology]

Alright.. according to APEGGAs website I would be classified as group A.

Group A's are Member-In-Training.. what I am

According the the APEGGA salary survey this is what A types get.

All Industries: $50,455
Consulting Service: $45,223
Engineering, Procurement and Construction: $50,478
Resource Exploitation - Oil and Gas: $55,059
Manufacturing - Durables: $49,428
Manufacturing - Non Durables: $51,332
Service - Not for Profit: $49,996
Service - For Profit: $49,921
Utility - Rate Controlled: $51,694
Advanced Technologies: $49,953

My thinking is that the company is in Advanced Technologies and is using the mean for A-, $36,535.. HOWEVER.. That is for Internship/Co-Op Students!

[flamefan74]

I would take the job and see what you get after 3 months. In my company, you get lowballed on the starting wage, but make up for it after the 3 months. Also, other companies that are paying more, what kind of bonus program are they paying. I make less than my friends in other companies on base salary, but really kick them on the bonus area. I end up making more than them at the end. If it is a company that could really take off, maybe it is better to take a little less now and get rewarded when the company does take off in terms of salary. If nothing else you gain experience. Just my thoughts.