The ongoing "how would you fix the goaltending" thread

[Otto-matic]

What would it take to pry Jimmy Howard out of Detroit? Would he waive to come to Calgary?

I'd bring Ramo back as a backup to Howard.

[Toonage]

Thats a likely $10 million tandem of Howard & Ramo. We can do better for that money.

[Poe969]

The only reason to keep Hiller and/or Ramo is if they want to get another high draft pick next year. Keeping either of them wouldn't be "fixing" anything, it would be the opposite of what the team needs. The saying is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" not "it's broken so don't fix it". I agree with waiting for the right guy but they still need to have someone in net and if they want the team to have even a little better success, they need to upgrade on those two guys.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Poe969

The only reason to keep Hiller and/or Ramo is if they want to get another high draft pick next year. Keeping either of them wouldn't be "fixing" anything, it would be the opposite of what the team needs. The saying is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" not "it's broken so don't fix it". I agree with waiting for the right guy but they still need to have someone in net and if they want the team to have even a little better success, they need to upgrade on those two guys.

Hiller is not coming back. To me it seems possible that Rämö will be one of the goalies next season but they'll definitely have to bring in someone from outside the organisation.

It doesn't sound like there's anyone great available right now. So maybe someone with possible potential will be signed on a short deal, keeping the options open for acquiring a real starter.

It's a mediocre team. Half of the forwards need to be replaced before they're a contender. That'll take time and probably another high pick. Goaltending would give forward momentum but I don't like the idea of committing to anyone long term right now unless he's really going to be good.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

It's a mediocre team. Half of the forwards need to be replaced before they're a contender. That'll take time and probably another high pick. Goaltending would give forward momentum but I don't like the idea of committing to anyone long term right now unless he's really going to be good.

This is easily a playoff team with average goaltending.

[Poe969]

I agree about not committing long term but I'd rather take a chance on Reimer over Ramo just because we already know what Ramo can do on this team. He's garbage most of the time and has the occasional streak of good play. If they're going to "settle" with Ramo, why not role the dice and see how someone else does. Worst case scenario the new guy does as bad as Ramo.

[calgaryboy]

Send Hiller to the moon ASAP....and we can go from there. Worst goalie to wear Flames uniform ever! Unbelieavably bad. Will celebrate the day we will get rid of him! Will open bottle of Champagne!

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

Hiller is not coming back. To me it seems possible that Rämö will be one of the goalies next season but they'll definitely have to bring in someone from outside the organisation.

It doesn't sound like there's anyone great available right now. So maybe someone with possible potential will be signed on a short deal, keeping the options for acquiring a real starter open.

It's a mediocre team. Half of the forwards need to be replaced before they're a contender. That'll take time and probably another high pick. Goaltending would give forward momentum but I don't like the idea of committing to anyone long term right now unless he's really going to be good.

How many years do we spot this team before expecting them to be good?

Kind of seems to me that next year they should be expected to be a playoff team. Monahan and Gaudreau are off their entry level contracts, Brodie and Hamilton are both mature defenders who are nearing their peak years. Gio is hopefully still in the productive years of his deal. Bennett will have had time to adjust to the NHL.

Agreed that they need more pieces up front, and even a high draft pick from this spring might not step into the line-up right away, but I think the onus is on management to find some improvements to compete next season, not two or three seasons down the line. This team needs to start being competitive. When we look around the league at teams that have gone through re-builds, the successful ones were competitive pretty quickly after acquiring their high draft picks. If Gaudreau, Monahan, and Bennett are truly the players that will take the Flames far, then it should start to happen quickly. Teams that languish in mediocrity for years with young players inevitably have to start over with different young players.

This team needs a goalie. Treliving needs to find someone. Another wasted year on top of this one and the Flames will be in danger of blowing in the wind along with other perennial also rans like Edmonton, Winnipeg, Columbus, Colorado, etc.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

What would it take to pry Jimmy Howard out of Detroit? Would he waive to come to Calgary?

I'd bring Ramo back as a backup to Howard.

You mean what would Detroit give Calgary to make them take Howard.

No one wants Howard. If BT wants him he should be fired

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Dr. Doom

I've been wondering how Treliving sleeps at night with this goalie thing forever an issue... ? I would have nightmares of Hiller.

Makes me wonder about Treliving's capabilities tbh.

What is he supposed to do about it right now? Trade assets for a different mediocre goalie?

[Funkhouser]

There are no #1 goalies on the market (aside from Bishop who I also have concerns about the reduced size of his equipment)

I would re-sign Ramo (1-2 years, $2.5-3M each) with the assumption that he plays between 30-50 games and try to supplement that with one of the following:
-Reimer (50 games, $4M x 3 years)
-Malcolm Subban (30 games)
-Montoya (30 games, $2M x 2 years)

This situation would allow us to roll with a 1A/1B until a clear #1 emerges.

[PepsiFree]

I mentioned this in the trade thread but it bears repeating:

Howard (and Ward) are not answers. They're not even just not "great" answers, they're not answers at all.

I know they're both well known so there is temptation but don't be tricked into thinking they're just "in a slump" or "playing behind a bad defence."

To put it into perspective, they would both have to return to form and surpass their very best year statistically to even be considered in the top HALF of 30 NHL starters. That's not even talking about top ten.

Assuming they won't repeat career years here (at their age) it's better to look at Neuvirth/Mason, Montoya, Reimer, Zatkoff, Keumper, and Andersen are all significantly better options. Raanta would even be better just based on age alone.

If you want Ward or Howard, you might as well just keep Ramo. He's equal or better. I'd rather none of the three.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

How many years do we spot this team before expecting them to be good?

Kind of seems to me that next year they should be expected to be a playoff team. Monahan and Gaudreau are off their entry level contracts, Brodie and Hamilton are both mature defenders who are nearing their peak years. Gio is hopefully still in the productive years of his deal. Bennett will have had time to adjust to the NHL.

Agreed that they need more pieces up front, and even a high draft pick from this spring might not step into the line-up right away, but I think the onus is on management to find some improvements to compete next season, not two or three seasons down the line. This team needs to start being competitive. When we look around the league at teams that have gone through re-builds, the successful ones were competitive pretty quickly after acquiring their high draft picks. If Gaudreau, Monahan, and Bennett are truly the players that will take the Flames far, then it should start to happen quickly. Teams that languish in mediocrity for years with young players inevitably have to start over with different young players.

This team needs a goalie. Treliving needs to find someone. Another wasted year on top of this one and the Flames will be in danger of blowing in the wind along with other perennial also rans like Edmonton, Winnipeg, Columbus, Colorado, etc.

I was talking about the next two years. I don't see them being a contender within that period. My view is based on where they are on the ice right now, not on the players' contract situations or how quickly the Blackhawks rose to be contenders.

Management is responsible for improving the team all the time, that goes without saying. However, I don't want them to lose the opportunity to get a really good goalie just because they hastily committed too much money and time on average ones.

[united]

Howard and Ward should be avoided at all costs. Both are AHL level goalies at this point, barring a dramatic turnaround. Then factor in they will get a reputation bump in pay and it's really not worth it. The Flames already have the highest-paid tandem in the league and sit last in save percentage - imagine paying more for worse goalies next year. Regardless, I think this is something you address at the draft, not now (unless the Flames win out to the trade deadline and want to try and make it).


However there is no easy fix. Last year there was three or four average starters available various costs yet they gambled on our current duo and lost - worth a risk I guess.

James Reimer is the only UFA of note and may be worth a shot. Save percentage of an average starter over the last four seasons (but two great seasons, two poor seasons, which are real?). Plus, with the Maple Leafs' train wreck of a defence you can likely bump that up a point or two with any competent team. He isn't small at 6'2 either. If the price is right and the Flames like him, maybe this is the route they take.

Montoya has been superb this season, as a backup, but was awful last season. Great the season before that, awful the two prior. That's a risky play, but he's probably cheap.

Enroth is another who has been great this year, as a backup, but he has a career of poor results before this year behind the Kings' stellar defence. Every goalie seems to get a bump with the Kings, or drop after leaving them. Plus he's only 5'10.

Raanta had one good year with the Blackhawks in limited action but has been poor otherwise. He is only 26, though. Could be worth a shot but that's a big gamble also.


There is a couple in the RFA market:

Frederik Andersen is only 26 and is big at 6'4. He's proven himself as league average goalie thus far and has a lot of room to improve. The Ducks seem set on moving forward with John Gibson, so Andersen is likely available. For the right price, he seems a potential target for a year or two.

Michael Hutchinson is just 25 and is 6'3. He was looking promising until collapsing down the stretch last year and his poor play this season. Perhaps worth gambling on a rebound. Likely not an option.

Petr Mrazek is obviously the big dog RFA. There is next to no chance it happens, but maybe they offer sheet a proven elite starter who is only 24 years old.


Outside of that, you have to look at the trade market where you're basically stuck looking for good backups stuck behind better starters:

Brian Elliott is 30 (seems older - just me?) and the Blues are going with Jake Allen going forward. While somewhat inconsistent, he usually finishes in the mid tier of starters in terms of save percentage. Certainly an upgrade on anything the Flames have had since Kiprusoff's second last season. $2.5 million cap hit for next season.

Michal Neuvirth is one they could have had for cheap but missed. Inconsistent results for his career but has been great this season. At 27 years old with a cap hit of $1.625 next season the Flyers are unlikely to part with him.

Thomas Greiss - another goalie the Flames should have been in on over Ramo but missed. 30 years old with a cap hit of $1.5 million. Unlikely the Islanders part with him.

Jonathan Bernier is 27 and 6'0 - once highly touted, he has bombed with the Maple Leafs outside his first season there. Like Reimer, some of it is likely due to the crap he has to play behind. His cap hit is $4.150 and expires at the end of next season. Talk about a tough read.


In summary, there is no clear fix this year. Last year there was viable short-term options but the Flames decided to stick with their current guys, who were/are clearly below average, and that backfired worse than anyone could have predicted. Good luck, Brad!

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by heep223

This is easily a playoff team with average goaltending.

Even if you're right, would they be able to beat any of the better teams in the conference? No. Not even with a couple of key veterans overachieving like last season.

[Buff]

Petition the league to allow us to use a Shooter Tutor until we can find a suitable replacement for Hiller and Ortio.

ANY goalie currently in the NHL will be better than Hiller or Ortio. Get one of those other goalies. Two would be great.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

How many years do we spot this team before expecting them to be good?

Kind of seems to me that next year they should be expected to be a playoff team. Monahan and Gaudreau are off their entry level contracts, Brodie and Hamilton are both mature defenders who are nearing their peak years. Gio is hopefully still in the productive years of his deal. Bennett will have had time to adjust to the NHL.

Agreed that they need more pieces up front, and even a high draft pick from this spring might not step into the line-up right away, but I think the onus is on management to find some improvements to compete next season, not two or three seasons down the line. This team needs to start being competitive. When we look around the league at teams that have gone through re-builds, the successful ones were competitive pretty quickly after acquiring their high draft picks. If Gaudreau, Monahan, and Bennett are truly the players that will take the Flames far, then it should start to happen quickly. Teams that languish in mediocrity for years with young players inevitably have to start over with different young players.

This team needs a goalie. Treliving needs to find someone. Another wasted year on top of this one and the Flames will be in danger of blowing in the wind along with other perennial also rans like Edmonton, Winnipeg, Columbus, Colorado, etc.

YOu spot them seasons until they actually have a roster decent enough where you can expect playoff success.

Just look at last night's game:

- Calgary got pushed around all night
- Calgary's top line was on fire and the team still lost
- Calgary's goaltending was only marginally worse than Anaheims
- 3 Blown leads.

These are all symptoms of being a bad team. If you are getting pushed around all night, you aren't dictating the play as much as you might think you are. If your top line is on fire and you still can't win, it means you have no secondary scoring (and are thus a bad team).You should win a game where you score 4 goals, even if 3 of Hiller's were awful, the team still allowed 3 more. If you're blowing multiple leads in a game, it's a sign you can't play any style other than loose. Good teams can 'lock it down', the Flames are gunning it whether they are winning or losing.

If you expected this team to be a playoff team this year or next, your expectations are simply too high.

The top line is good, the rest of the team needs a lot of work.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

YOu spot them seasons until they actually have a roster decent enough where you can expect playoff success.

Just look at last night's game:

- Calgary got pushed around all night
- Calgary's top line was on fire and the team still lost
- Calgary's goaltending was only marginally worse than Anaheims
- 3 Blown leads.

These are all symptoms of being a bad team. If you are getting pushed around all night, you aren't dictating the play as much as you might think you are. If your top line is on fire and you still can't win, it means you have no secondary scoring (and are thus a bad team).You should win a game where you score 4 goals, even if 3 of Hiller's were awful, the team still allowed 3 more. If you're blowing multiple leads in a game, it's a sign you can't play any style other than loose. Good teams can 'lock it down', the Flames are gunning it whether they are winning or losing.

If you expected this team to be a playoff team this year or next, your expectations are simply too high.

The top line is good, the rest of the team needs a lot of work.

Does it? If Monahan, Gaudreau, and Bennett are truly the players that will lead Calgary, how many pieces are we actually missing? How many players can we expect to add with the cap restrictions what they are once those three players get paid what they're worth? Another top offensive player for sure, and a better goaltender for sure. Beyond that, this team should have enough to compete. The defence is solid, and there are enough second line/third line depth to be able to step up when needed (Frolik, Backlund, Ferland, Bouma, etc). So the question is, how long does it take the young players to play to the level needed for them to lead Calgary? If you look around the league at other young players who went on to lead their team, it didn't take that long. Usually by the time a player is past their entry level contract, they are established leaders. If not, than they probably are just complimentary pieces and not the corner stone pieces that we all expect them to be. The NHL has changed. It is no longer a 25 to 30 year old league, it is a 22 to 27 year old league.

[Bingo]

I don't mind Ramo but only if his market value falls out. With the injury, he could go to UFA status with some high aims only to still be on the market a week later and looking for anything.

As a backup or a 1B I don't mind him. But if he wants close to $4M you have to blow up the entire carousel and bring in two from the outside.

Maybe they should deal their 2nd rounder to San Jose for their AHL goaltender!

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Does it? If Monahan, Gaudreau, and Bennett are truly the players that will lead Calgary, how many pieces are we actually missing? How many players can we expect to add with the cap restrictions what they are once those three players get paid what they're worth? Another top offensive player for sure, and a better goaltender for sure. Beyond that, this team should have enough to compete. The defence is solid, and there are enough second line/third line depth to be able to step up when needed (Frolik, Backlund, Ferland, Bouma, etc). So the question is, how long does it take the young players to play to the level needed for them to lead Calgary? If you look around the league at other young players who went on to lead their team, it didn't take that long. Usually by the time a player is past their entry level contract, they are established leaders. If not, than they probably are just complimentary pieces and not the corner stone pieces that we all expect them to be. The NHL has changed. It is no longer a 25 to 30 year old league, it is a 22 to 27 year old league.

So you think Toews and Kane do it themselves in Chicago?

It's just Kopitar and Brown in Los Angeles?

It was just Bergeron and Krejci in Boston?

The flames have basically nothing after Gaudreau/Monahan/Bennett/Brodie/Hamilton. The flames have 12 fulltime roster players with less than 5 goals this season and we're at what, the 55, 56 game mark?