Honeymoon over in Winnipeg? Tickets going unsold

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. I think we are going to see some serious attendance declines next year. What a lot of people forget is that all the Oil and services companies paid for these seasons tickets back in April. A lot of them won't be renewing. I would suspect there will be many empty boxes next year and many open lower bowl seats due to the economy.

There is a world of difference between empty seats and boxes in a building with a 19,000 seating capacity, and one that is limited to selling 4,000 fewer tickets. The problem isn't just that the Jets are not selling out. It is that this issue is tremendously compounded by the fact that they HAVE TO sell out to be successful. Winnipeg is the only NHL market in which this is the case.

Oh, and I will throw as many stones in my own god-damned glass house as I please, thanks. (Such an abused metaphor).

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. I think we are going to see some serious attendance declines next year. What a lot of people forget is that all the Oil and services companies paid for these seasons tickets back in April. A lot of them won't be renewing. I would suspect there will be many empty boxes next year and many open lower bowl seats due to the economy.

IMO Flames fans can throw stones seeing the organization has been a top 5 attendance team for over a decade now despite going through half of that time being a non-playoff team.

Let's put things in perspective here in that a 15k sellout in Winnipeg would be considered a disaster in Calgary as attendance.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. I think we are going to see some serious attendance declines next year. What a lot of people forget is that all the Oil and services companies paid for these seasons tickets back in April. A lot of them won't be renewing. I would suspect there will be many empty boxes next year and many open lower bowl seats due to the economy.

We've already dropped, slightly.

But the comparison between Calgary and Winnipeg is one of scale.

If the Jets played to 90% capacity, they would be drawing only 13,765 fans per game. That would be 26th in the league. Of course, as it is, they are only 24th.

If the Flames played to 90% capacity, we would be at 17,360 per game, though that would drop us from 7th to 18th.

We also have 50% more luxury suites, which were completely sold out even in the darkest days of the Young Guns era and during the last financial downturn.

We are certainly going to suffer, but Calgary has far more slack than Winnipeg.

[Locke]

And thats basically the crux of the matter.

Winnipeg's ability to make this work financially was pretty razor thin at the best of times when they first started.

Everyone, and I mean everyone, myself included, mentioned this at the time.

It sounded like they could do it when they got the Jets back but at that time absolutely everything was going their way. The dollar was strong, the market was there, the fans were rabid to get their team back.

That was when everything was perfect and even then the margins were slim.

Now everything isnt perfect and that margin is looking mighty fine.

[MillerTime GFG]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. I think we are going to see some serious attendance declines next year. What a lot of people forget is that all the Oil and services companies paid for these seasons tickets back in April. A lot of them won't be renewing. I would suspect there will be many empty boxes next year and many open lower bowl seats due to the economy.

Not necessarily in 100% agreement, but just as an add-on, I heard Baker Hughes is actually selling their tickets on Kijiji. That's insane.

[Resolute 14]

At the same time though, it is important to note that the linked salary cap takes a lot of pressure off both Calgary and Winnipeg (and the other five teams). That is a safety net that could have made a major difference in the 1990s.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

Not necessarily in 100% agreement, but just as an add-on, I heard Baker Hughes is actually selling their tickets on Kijiji. That's insane.

I've heard crazier things that Baker Hughes is doing at the moment.

Especially if you're in the market for a used white F-150.

[PeteMoss]

Is there any reason to think they are in trouble besides a few tickets not being sold? We can probably a wait a bit before dislocated a shoulder tapping ourselves on the back.

[polak]

I don't think we'll see as many boxes sold off as you think.

First off, they're not all owned by Oil companies. I don't think they list who owns the boxes anywhere but off the top of my head there's Telus, CP, CN and the Herald that own Suites and I'm sure there is a lot more. I know I noticed a couple companies with "Logistics" in the name.

Second, I heard that when you buy a box you are forced to renovate it too. That's a big investment and if they can't make most of it back then I doubt they just let it go, especially with the costs and time involved to get it back. Plus they still need a way to entertain clients.

Third, I think most of the companies that can swing suites are pretty big and can ride this out.

I don't think we have to panic about corporate clients selling seats and suites for a long time. Calgary is still a major business hub and the seats cost pennies relative to most of these companies budgets.

[Locke]

I'm not worried about it in Calgary, I mean if businesses cant afford the boxes then Schools and Hospitals will buy them.

CUPE can afford hockey tickets right?

[Trojan97]

The Jets owners owning the MTS centre is huge for them. It's consistently one of the top-5 busiest arenas in Canada and every nickle of profit ends up in their pocket. There's no way the Jets are in any kind of danger for a long, long time.They built their arena for a cool 134 million back in '04, 40.5 mil of which was paid for by taxpayers. That's a pretty sweet deal for those guys and no reason to think they owners, being the businessmen that they are and deeply connected to the city, would walk away unless the league economics fall greatly out of whack again.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Is there any reason to think they are in trouble besides a few tickets not being sold? We can probably a wait a bit before dislocated a shoulder tapping ourselves on the back.

Nobody is saying they are in trouble but not selling out a 15k seat arena is concerning.

[Jordan!]

Yesssssss

sorry for that, but it's just funny how the Coyotes drawing 11k during the recession with no owner, court battles, no certainty of the future meant MOVE THEM TO WINNIPEG and now look at what's going on..

Ironic, we still have no certainty to have the Yotes here after next year (Although, Tempe/Phoenix is progressing a lot behind the scenes)

[Resolute 14]

"What's going on" is Winnipeg still utterly dominating the Coyotes in attendance, interest and any financial metric you can imagine, Jordan. You should probably wait until the Coyotes manage to turn a single profit before you start crowing.

[Dogbert]

So... The upcoming game on Thursday had a total of 376 unsold tickets (out of 15,294) a full 78 hours prior to puck-drop, and it's the death knell for the franchise? It's completely unthinkable that the team could sell the extra 400-odd tickets in the three days between when the author logged onto Ticketmaster and when the game starts?

For what it's worth, the Jets have announced sell-outs for every home game so far this season.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Nobody is saying they are in trouble but not selling out a 15k seat arena is concerning.

Were you really expecting them to sell out every game for their entire run in Winnipeg? Even the Leafs have non sell-out games from time to time.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Were you really expecting them to sell out every game for their entire run in Winnipeg? Even the Leafs have non sell-out games from time to time.

When is the last time the Leafs have played at home in a 15k seat arena? The Leafs just recently stopped selling out but it's safe to say that attendance is never going to be an issue based on their history. Winnipeg's history is much more spotty.

[polak]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Were you really expecting them to sell out every game for their entire run in Winnipeg? Even the Leafs have non sell-out games from time to time.

The thing is a non-sellout for them is a dismal night for any other market.

Sub-15,000 K is a small crowd for an NHL game.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. I think we are going to see some serious attendance declines next year. What a lot of people forget is that all the Oil and services companies paid for these seasons tickets back in April. A lot of them won't be renewing. I would suspect there will be many empty boxes next year and many open lower bowl seats due to the economy.

We aren't in a glass house, our house is made of concrete walls. Sure they can come crumbling down eventually but a little breeze won't knock down our walls like it will in Winnipeg.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't think we'll see as many boxes sold off as you think.

First off, they're not all owned by Oil companies. I don't think they list who owns the boxes anywhere but off the top of my head there's Telus, CP, CN and the Herald that own Suites and I'm sure there is a lot more. I know I noticed a couple companies with "Logistics" in the name.

Second, I heard that when you buy a box you are forced to renovate it too. That's a big investment and if they can't make most of it back then I doubt they just let it go, especially with the costs and time involved to get it back. Plus they still need a way to entertain clients.

Third, I think most of the companies that can swing suites are pretty big and can ride this out.

I don't think we have to panic about corporate clients selling seats and suites for a long time. Calgary is still a major business hub and the seats cost pennies relative to most of these companies budgets.

You are completely out of touch with the economic reality of the Calgary Corporate community if you actually think that. I would bet that around 30-40% of the boxes are directly purchased by Oil & Gas Companies, and the others are mostly made up of oilfield service, construction companies, and other industries that support the Oil & Gas industry or directly benefit from it (Legal, accounting, real estate, financial services).

Sure BMO and some law/accounting firms and Telus may keep their boxes, but a lot of the other won't.These guys can barely make payroll and are laying off every second week and you think they are going to give 200K+ a year to the Flames to maintain their boxes? These guys have to buy that box for every single event at the dome and pay for the food and drink people spend in there on top of that. I know of several companies in town that currently have boxes and are leaving the empty on purpose to they can avoid the food and beverage charge associated with the box being used.

What does a large leasehold improvement cost have anything to do with companies walking away from their box? That's a sunk cost. These companies are trying to conserve cash flow, it's irrelevant to their cash flow management decisions. In fact, the leasehold improvements requirement is more of a barrier to the Flames filling those empty boxes back up than it is people walking away from them.

We aren't just talking about boxes here either. We are also talking about a large portion of the lower bowl seats that are being purchase by companies. My firm had 10 sets of season tickets in the lower bowl. We are going with 2 next year, the decision has already been made.

Obviously this isn't going to kill the Flames, and they'll still have good attendance (personal tickets), but box and lower bowl attendance is definitely going to be a problem next year so I don't think I'd be taking shots at Winnipeg for having a couple hundred unsold tickets prior to a game that half the city probably doesn't even know are available given their season ticket holder requirement of a 3 year purchase (or has that been thrown to the wayside?).