Wideman heating up

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I appreciate your defense of the guy and I agree he played well much of last year. But let's not confuse him with a top defenseman in the league. And for a guy who should be a PP specialist theFlames have never had a great PP with him.

Regardless of who signed them, there are not many good UFA signings on this team. Hudler is the exception. I suspect other teams look this way too, so really points to how important it it to build from within.

Well, he is paid about half what a top defenseman gets, so who is confusing him with one? The expectations of him to score like he did last year, but defend at a top level as well, are completely unrealistic. If he did that, he would be winning Norris trophies.

Defensemen who put up points get paid. Right shot defensemen get paid more than Left shot defensemen. Put those two things together and he isn't overpaid by much.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Praise? He gets almost no praise here. He gets crapped on in almost every thread, regardless of the topic.

He definitely earned his money last year. He had 54 points! He was 4th in the entire league for scoring, and he logged a ton of minutes, especially after Gio went down. His salary isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Top defensemen in this league make more than 10 Million a year.

Nothing against Wideman but your view on top D cap hit* is a bit off.

Top paid D in the NHL for 2015-16:

1 P.K. Subban $9,000,000
2 Shea Weber $7,857,143
3 Ryan Suter $7,538,462
4 Kris Letang $7,250,000
5 Brian Campbell $7,142,875
6 Drew Doughty $7,000,000
7 Dion Phaneuf $7,000,000
8 Zdeno Chara $6,916,667
9 Alex Pietrangelo $6,500,000
10 Erik Karlsson $6,500,000
...
15 Dougie Hamilton $5,750,000
...
31 Dennis Wideman $5,250,000

HM: Brodie is 43rd, and Gio is 68th.

*I realize the salary is slightly higher than the cap hit in the beginning of the contract

[mikephoen]

Here is a stat for the detractors. During this season (which according to many posters, he has been horrible, is completely not worth his salary, should be fired into the sun, and has negative trade value) he is still 33rd in League scoring. Looking at the cap hits of other defensemen in the league, I notice that his cap hit is tied for 31st among NHL defensemen. Tied with Mark Streit btw... who has very similar offensive numbers and similar defensive problems. And 33rd for actual salary paid this year...

So it looks like he is paid in about the range that players with his skill get.

During the length of this contract, he is 16th in total points for Defensemen over those seasons. Seems like an ok deal to me.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Nothing against Wideman but your view on top D cap hit* is a bit off.

Top paid D in the NHL for 2015-16:

HM: Brodie is 43rd, and Gio is 68th.

*I realize the salary is slightly higher than the cap hit in the beginning of the contract

Those are cap hits. Do a search for salaries. Weber made 14 million this year.

[Strange Brew]

31st highest cap hit in the league. To the Flames cap hit matters far more than salary.

At that number, he should theoretically be the best #2 D in the league. Over three and a half years with the Flames he may have played a few games of that quality. Maybe.

And that's why BT can't move him.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

31st highest cap hit in the league. To the Flames cap hit matters far more than salary.

At that number, he should theoretically be the best #2 D in the league. Over three and a half years with the Flames he may have played a few games of that quality. Maybe.

And that's why BT can't move him.

You really need to stop. You're beyond reaching.

You don't know we've been actively trying to move Wideman. Listening to offers / kicking tires? Sure, anyone on the team outside of the young core can be moved if the price is right. Suggesting Treliving has been desperate to move him is sheer conjecture on your part.

And any way you shake it your comment about him "never coming close" to earning his salary was absolutely asinine. Fourth in points last season was exactly why we paid (and paid a premium) for him as a free agent (something that inflated his worth).

You said something outlandish, and are now spinning your wheels trying to back track. Just stop exaggerating, and you won't need to do the tap dancing.

It's fine to criticize his game. He's not a well rounded d-man. But to suggest he's never come close to earning his salary and acting like it's a fact we've been desperately trying to move him is sheer nonsense, and beyond weak.

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Here is a stat for the detractors. During this season (which according to many posters, he has been horrible, is completely not worth his salary, should be fired into the sun, and has negative trade value) he is still 33rd in League scoring. Looking at the cap hits of other defensemen in the league, I notice that his cap hit is tied for 31st among NHL defensemen. Tied with Mark Streit btw... who has very similar offensive numbers and similar defensive problems. And 33rd for actual salary paid this year...

So it looks like he is paid in about the range that players with his skill get.

During the length of this contract, he is 16th in total points for Defensemen over those seasons. Seems like an ok deal to me.

But league scoring isn't the only measure of a good defenseman

[Vinny01]

I wonder if this is a contract the Flames can trade. The NMC will make it even harder but this team is loaded with a lot of bad money that expires after next season. Wideman, Engellend, Smid are the teams 5-7 Dmen and combine to eat up 11.67M in cap space next year.

Flames can always let Russell walk or trade him and keep Wideman in the top 4. Weird to have a top for with 2 lefties playing together on the first pair and 2 righties playing together on the second pair

[frodo_t_baggins]

Call me crazy but when Russell is back I wouldn't mind seeing wideman put on the wing with monahan and gaudreau. At his best, wideman is probably still the worst defensively out of all of our options and he can probably bring more to the table offensively than Jones. However, only if we remain a cellar dweller, if we start rolling than keep everything as is!

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Those are cap hits. Do a search for salaries. Weber made 14 million this year.

That is true, but he is the only one getting paid more than 10 million. In fact, only him and Suter get paid more than 8 million this year. Unless you were suggesting that there is only one "top defensemen" in the league.

Top Salaries

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

31st highest cap hit in the league. To the Flames cap hit matters far more than salary.

At that number, he should theoretically be the best #2 D in the league. Over three and a half years with the Flames he may have played a few games of that quality. Maybe.

And that's why BT can't move him.

I'm sure BT could unload him for a song if he were of the mind to. The most his lack of movement implies is that Treliving hasn't found an offer he liked. There haven't been many trades made throughout the league as a whole. It's becoming more and more a "draft and develop" league. Teams aren't really willing to give up futures for anything but top players anymore.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

I'm sure BT could unload him for a song if he were of the mind to. The most his lack of movement implies is that Treliving hasn't found an offer he liked. There haven't been many trades made throughout the league as a whole. It's becoming more and more a "draft and develop" league. Teams aren't really willing to give up futures for anything but top players anymore.

For the most part thats true, theres always some action and a handfull of noteworthy trades at the deadline though.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

31st highest cap hit in the league. To the Flames cap hit matters far more than salary.

At that number, he should theoretically be the best #2 D in the league. Over three and a half years with the Flames he may have played a few games of that quality. Maybe.

And that's why BT can't move him.

A few games of that quality? When Giordano went down last year the Wideman/Russell pairing stepped it up big time and saved the Flames season. That's 3 months right there. And also the most important 3 months of hockey the Flames have played in years.

He was 20th in Norris voting for crying out loud.

No, he hasn't been as good this year so put him on a long list of Flames who have struggled at times this season. And, like killer_carlson pointed out, has looked much better lately.

[Strange Brew]

I have been wrong many times before and maybe I'm wrong here too. But scoring stats and Norris trophy votes(when you're 20th) just don't paint the whole picture. IMO he has been overpaid from day one and in a rising cap, over 3 years later, he is still overpaid. If the Flames have championship aspirations, you can't pay Wideman this kind of money.

I will eat my words if he is traded for a decent return, without Flames eating salary before next years deadline. Until then maybe we just disagree on his worth. I have never seen him as a top 3 dman and I don't think he has been unless in case of an injury.

[Monahan For Mayor]

I really don't mind Wideman. My two biggest issues with him currently , he's slowing down the PP way to much, and he isn't getting his shot through like previous years. If he can fix those problems, he will be just fine.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

It's funny how polarizing he is as a player.

I think he's been inconsistent, but if I had to do that deal over again, I'd still take it.

And I'm not normally a fan of offensive defencemen (or the increased salary they demand, which is generally higher than their real-world effectiveness).

I think he has predictable strengths and weaknesses, but neither his ability to be a league-leading offensive weapon, nor his tendency to get hemmed in badly when being cycled, are being optimized when Deryk Engelland is his partner.

When used properly, Wideman can score points at a rate that 1st line forwards can struggle to match. The guy is good.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I have been wrong many times before and maybe I'm wrong here too. But scoring stats and Norris trophy votes(when you're 20th) just don't paint the whole picture. IMO he has been overpaid from day one and in a rising cap, over 3 years later, he is still overpaid. If the Flames have championship aspirations, you can't pay Wideman this kind of money.

I will eat my words if he is traded for a decent return, without Flames eating salary before next years deadline. Until then maybe we just disagree on his worth. I have never seen him as a top 3 dman and I don't think he has been unless in case of an injury.

I would pay 5 million for a 55 point defenceman any day of the week (yes, he only did that last year, but you insinuate that you felt he was still overpaid when he got 55 points). Especially one that can play on the second pairing.

In your eyes, how much is Wideman worth?

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

That is true, but he is the only one getting paid more than 10 million. In fact, only him and Suter get paid more than 8 million this year. Unless you were suggesting that there is only one "top defensemen" in the league.

Top Salaries

Sorry, you're correct on this. I forgot that a lot of the back sliding deals with their crazy up front money from the last CBA are running out. Suter for example made $11M last year, but dropped this year.

Never the less, Wideman puts up points like a top Dman, but makes several million less. It's not like guys like Karlsson are stalwart in their own end either.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I have been wrong many times before and maybe I'm wrong here too. But scoring stats and Norris trophy votes(when you're 20th) just don't paint the whole picture. IMO he has been overpaid from day one and in a rising cap, over 3 years later, he is still overpaid. If the Flames have championship aspirations, you can't pay Wideman this kind of money.

I will eat my words if he is traded for a decent return, without Flames eating salary before next years deadline. Until then maybe we just disagree on his worth. I have never seen him as a top 3 dman and I don't think he has been unless in case of an injury.

Except you didn't say "we won't get a decent return for him". You said he's "never come close to earning his salary" and that the flames have been desperately trying to trade him.

You should be eating your words about him never having earned his salary already but you're more interested in deflecting away from the fact you said that. It wouldn't be difficult for you to admit you were exaggerating. The guy was 4th in league scoring last year and was huge down the stretch. He was clearly worth every penny last year.

Lastly, you keep referring to the fact he's over-paid without providing any context. He was signed as a free agent, and as a result we paid a premium. Considering he was such a major part of our success and having made the playoffs last year, I'd say that worked out.

Would I move him if the return was right? Absolutely. He's getting older with each season. But that's a far cry from baselessly suggesting the Flames have been desperately trying to move him.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I agree with the headline. Wideman has been garbage for the majority of his career but this year he's been hot garbage. Heating up indeed!

I don't care if he's getting points. He's still too slow, is a defensive liability, and teams jump on him every opportunity they have. He and Russell NEED to be moved for the defense to get better. Hopefully some other sucker will be enamored with his point production and will offer something of value for him. I don't see that happening because teams actually watch the games and they can see how bad Wideman is.