Ramo vs Hiller vs Ortio: The Debate

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I voted Hiller/Ortio before, I do it here again. Here are my reasons:

Hiller: The most consistent of the three, you know what you get with Hiller and it helps the defensemen anticipate how to defend easier. Inconsistency and erratic play from a goalie is the most difficult thing for a defender to deal with. He's a solid blocking goalie that does a good job of absorbing anything above the pads, but he can let rebounds out into the slot sometimes, and often gets beat over his shoulders. However, most shots are low enough that he stops them, so I don't sweat the odd shot beating him over the shoulder. Stats back him up too, with a very good GAA and a decent Save % last year.

Ramo: Has good to great stretches for fairly long periods of time, but when he loses his game, he loses it completely. Those poor stretches can last a few weeks at a time too, making him almost unreliable as a backup. However, he's athletic and will almost always stop the first shot, but often finds himself out of position. This is problematic because, like Hiller, he also has a tendency to let rebounds out into the slot, especially when he's moving around a lot. When he's quiet in his crease, he's nearly unbeatable, and can single-handedly steal you games, but the problem is he's rarely at that level. Ramo has a full spectrum of play from AHL level goalie to elite #1 starter. My problem with him is you never know which version of Ramo you will get. He's almost 30, so he's not likely to change much going forward. He is what he is at this point: A guy that can be brilliant and terrible.

Ortio: Sample size is small, but he's had the most impressive showings in the NHL. However, he's also had a couple of pretty poor games where he's lost the plot, which inflate his numbers. He's been dominant in the AHL, which is no small feat. Ortio has proven himself over and over in the AHL, but he's also had issues with slow starts to a season. What I like about him is he's just coming into his own, and if he reached his potential he could be a #1 starter in the league. From what I've seen, his game translates to the NHL, but he needs consistent playing time, at least as a backup, so maybe 20-30 games. It's time for him to get that opportunity, mostly because he'll be picked up if he goes on waivers.

Hiller-55 games, Ortio 25 games. That's the way I'd like to see it for the rest of the year.

[CMPunk]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Once Hiller has a bad game, who gets the next start?

You would think Ortio if the rotation holds true.

[mrkajz44]

It has to be Hiller / someone else - he's the solid veteran that can be turned to when required. Personally, I'd like to see Ortio as I think Ortio / Ramo is close to a wash and clearly Ortio is the way of the future right now.

[PlayfulGenius]

Trade all 3...bring in Rask

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Youngster syndrome that is pretty prevalent on this matter as it is for many Flames fans on lots of issues. The overwhelming desire that the younger option also be the best option (because it's the best outcome for the team if it's the truth) just takes over peoples opinions and beliefs. We want Ortio to be the better of the three that we just look for anything that we can use as evidence to convince ourselves it's true. But really it's more hope than actual evidence.

This is such a tough one. Two veterans that as a combo were good enough to help a young team win a round of playoffs, yet still were inconsistent and haven't sold us or the coaches yet. And one young guy who's played well at the NHL level, and not well, and even at the AHL level has both been lights out and struggled in recent enough times.

I have no idea what they should do. I think we should all be hoping that Ortio somehow earns the net and proves he can be a solid starter for this club, that would be optimal. As it sits now, I think it's tough to suggest anything other than Hiller likely being your "safest" option, but is that good enough?

I had to be careful in writing something (that I think in the end, I didn't even post) to avoid sounding like 'Ortio is younger = better!" which got me thinking about why we care so much about him. Is it just that he is younger?

I think what it comes down to really is that we know what Hiller and Ramo bring us. And a championship goalie is not that.

So we project our optimism onto Ortio hoping that he CAN be the best of the 3.

Edit:
For me personally, the Kipper connection helps it quite a bit as well. It's not the end all, but will be pretty cool if he does end up being a great goalie for us.

[Fire]

Hiller/Ortio

Trade or send down Ramo.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Once Hiller has a bad game, who gets the next start?

I think it has to be Ortio, no?

[CroFlames]

Is Hartley under obligation to play Ortio? I think if I'm the head coach and I have two NHL goalies and 1 AHL goalie who showed promise in a few NHL games, I would just roll with my NHL goalies to be safe until my GM traded one away. This issue is on Brad not Bob.

Hartley is in the business of winning games, not developing players. If Brad thinks Ortio is ready for the NHL, he'll move one of the other NHL goalies he has. Until then, Bob will (probably) just run with guys who are proven. Why wouldn't he?

[Huntingwhale]

I've been pretty vocal about Hiller & Ortio since day 1 of the off season. I think Hiller is extremely underrated around here. Last year he put up a 2.36 GAA and .918 s%. Yet some people used words like ''decent'' and ''below average'' to describe his play. Am I the only person who thinks that is damn good and much better then expected when he signed?

The guy has never had a s% under .910 his entire career. His career average is .917. I don't know what people were expecting when he signed, but IMO he's better exactly as advertised, even better. Does he let in the occasional stinker? Sure he does. But so did Kipper. And Hiller is one of those guys who gets better as the game goes on. He's more a blocker type goalie then Ramo, but he has pretty good rebound control and a great glove hand. Hiller's save won us the game in Vancouver.

However in all of the talk about the 3 headed goalie monster and how either Hiller or Ramo should be traded, I think the biggest mistake in all of it was signing Ortio to a 1 way in the 2nd year of his contract. It's well known that goalies take much longer to find their form. Ortio was 22 when he signed that 2 year contract. I think management was expecting him to be up with the team full time by the age of 24. I personally thought it was 1 year too early for him. I know fans are in a rush to have him grab the reigns and run with it, but really there is no rush. I don't view our cup-contending window as being open just yet (but on the brink of it) and I think Ortio having yet another year in the AHL would have been good for him.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

However in all of the talk about the 3 headed goalie monster and how either Hiller or Ramo should be traded, I think the biggest mistake in all of it was signing Ortio to a 1 way in the 2nd year of his contract. It's well known that goalies take much longer to find their form. Ortio was 22 when he signed that 2 year contract. I think management was expecting him to be up with the team full time by the age of 24. I personally thought it was 1 year too early for him. I know fans are in a rush to have him grab the reigns and run with it, but really there is no rush. I don't view our cup-contending window as being open just yet (but on the brink of it) and I think Ortio having yet another year in the AHL would have been good for him.

I can't believe we have to keep explaining this, but a 1 way contract has nothing to do with him playing in the NHL or AHL, it simply means he gets one salary whether he plays in the NHL or AHL. It means he doesn't make less if he plays in the AHL, that's all.

Ortio is in the NHL because he's no longer waiver-exempt and they risk losing him if they attempt to send him to the AHL on waivers. That's it. It has nothing to do with his contract.

The contract indicates that management feels he's ready for the NHL, as does their unwillingness to send him down. IMO, it's just a matter of time before a space is made for him on the team permanently. I just hope it's done in the next couple of weeks.

[King Theo]

Offer both Hiller and Ramo a 1 year contract and sign the cheaper of the two, wave the other.

[Badgers Nose]

Rotate Hiller and Ortio

Ramo is probably untradable.

You could send Ramo down, he won't get claimed, but then that would slow Gillies development by robbing him of starts. Do you put him in the ECHL?

Ramo has not proven anything at the NHL level, he is a bigger ??? than then guys like Scrivens IMO. I think he gets you nothing in the way of picks, and on the contrary he has negative value in these days of 50 contract limits.

What purpose does he serve on any team? He is a peaked-out expensive mediocre goalie. The only place hit fits is here, on a team that can afford some insurance (contract and dollars).

This is still year 3 of a rebuild, no?

[CMPunk]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Rotate Hiller and Ortio

Ramo is probably untradable.

You could send Ramo down, he won't get claimed, but then that would slow Gillies development by robbing him of starts. Do you put him in the ECHL?

Ramo has not proven anything at the NHL level, he is a bigger ??? than then guys like Scrivens IMO. I think he gets you nothing in the way of picks, and on the contrary he has negative value in these days of 50 contract limits.

What purpose does he serve on any team? He is a peaked-out expensive mediocre goalie. The only place hit fits is here, on a team that can afford some insurance (contract and dollars).

This is still year 3 of a rebuild, no?

You can't send him to the ECHL without his permission, and it's highly unlikely that's gonna happen.

[Conroy4Mayor]

Originally Posted by King Theo

Offer both Hiller and Ramo a 1 year contract and sign the cheaper of the two, wave the other.

Love it! Playing time and a permanent spot on the roster goes to the lowest bidder. The other gets waived, and we can say it was their own doing. Problem solved. Genius.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

...You could send Ramo down, he won't get claimed, but then that would slow Gillies development by robbing him of starts. Do you put him in the ECHL?

Stockton will still need two goaltenders, so no, neither one would end up in the ECHL. Besides, this is Gillies' first season of professional hockey, and it is highly likely that he will have a few moments of adjustment that will see him playing fewer games.

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Ramo has not proven anything at the NHL level, he is a bigger ??? than then guys like Scrivens IMO. I think he gets you nothing in the way of picks, and on the contrary he has negative value in these days of 50 contract limits.

That's ridiculous. Ramo is not a bonafide NHL starter, but he still provides a competent option as a backup goalie. I think he is a better goalie than Ben Scrivens.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

I've been pretty vocal about Hiller & Ortio since day 1 of the off season. I think Hiller is extremely underrated around here. Last year he put up a 2.36 GAA and .918 s%. Yet some people used words like ''decent'' and ''below average'' to describe his play. Am I the only person who thinks that is damn good and much better then expected when he signed?

The guy has never had a s% under .910 his entire career. His career average is .917. I don't know what people were expecting when he signed, but IMO he's better exactly as advertised, even better. Does he let in the occasional stinker? Sure he does. But so did Kipper. And Hiller is one of those guys who gets better as the game goes on. He's more a blocker type goalie then Ramo, but he has pretty good rebound control and a great glove hand. Hiller's save won us the game in Vancouver.

"The Following 4,294,967,295 Users Say Thank You to Huntingwhale For This Useful Post:"

wat

I think the biggest mistake in all of it was signing Ortio to a 1 way in the 2nd year of his contract. It's well known that goalies take much longer to find their form. Ortio was 22 when he signed that 2 year contract. I think management was expecting him to be up with the team full time by the age of 24. I personally thought it was 1 year too early for him. I know fans are in a rush to have him grab the reigns and run with it, but really there is no rush. I don't view our cup-contending window as being open just yet (but on the brink of it) and I think Ortio having yet another year in the AHL would have been good for him.

Whether Ortio's on a 1-way or 2-way doesn't really change a thing. He'd still have to clear waivers and that's the reason he's not being sent down to the AHL.

[CMPunk]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Stockton will still need two goaltenders, so no, neither one would end up in the ECHL. Besides, this is Gillies' first season of professional hockey, and it is highly likely that he will have a few moments of adjustment that will see him playing fewer games.


That's ridiculous. Ramo is not a bonafide NHL starter, but he still provides a competent option as a backup goalie. I think he is a better goalie than Ben Scrivens.

Actually, even with Scriven's time in that dumpster fire up north, his stats are almost identical to Ramo's.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CMPunk

You would think Ortio if the rotation holds true.

I don't know. I think the rotation right now is Ramo/Hiller and Ortio sits in the press box until a trade, injury, waiving or someone plays so bad that they drop out of top two.

[Weitz]

Debate or Debacle?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I voted Hiller/Ortio before, I do it here again. Here are my reasons:

Hiller: The most consistent of the three, you know what you get with Hiller and it helps the defensemen anticipate how to defend easier. Inconsistency and erratic play from a goalie is the most difficult thing for a defender to deal with. He's a solid blocking goalie that does a good job of absorbing anything above the pads, but he can let rebounds out into the slot sometimes, and often gets beat over his shoulders. However, most shots are low enough that he stops them, so I don't sweat the odd shot beating him over the shoulder. Stats back him up too, with a very good GAA and a decent Save % last year.

Ramo: Has good to great stretches for fairly long periods of time, but when he loses his game, he loses it completely. Those poor stretches can last a few weeks at a time too, making him almost unreliable as a backup. However, he's athletic and will almost always stop the first shot, but often finds himself out of position. This is problematic because, like Hiller, he also has a tendency to let rebounds out into the slot, especially when he's moving around a lot. When he's quiet in his crease, he's nearly unbeatable, and can single-handedly steal you games, but the problem is he's rarely at that level. Ramo has a full spectrum of play from AHL level goalie to elite #1 starter. My problem with him is you never know which version of Ramo you will get. He's almost 30, so he's not likely to change much going forward. He is what he is at this point: A guy that can be brilliant and terrible.

Ortio: Sample size is small, but he's had the most impressive showings in the NHL. However, he's also had a couple of pretty poor games where he's lost the plot, which inflate his numbers. He's been dominant in the AHL, which is no small feat. but he's also had issues with slow starts to a season. What I like about him is he's just coming into his own, and if he reached his potential he could be a #1 starter in the league. From what I've seen, his game translates to the NHL, but he needs consistent playing time, at least as a backup, so maybe 20-30 games. It's time for him to get that opportunity, mostly because he'll be picked up if he goes on waivers.

Hiller-55 games, Ortio 25 games. That's the way I'd like to see it for the rest of the year.

Ortio had a strong season in the AHL in 2013-14 with 27-8 record and a sv % of .926 followed with a disappointing non-heroic playoffs.

Last year.... after signing his big (for an AHL goalie contract) he has not proven anything at the AHL level. 21-13-1 .912 sv % There were 30 AHL goalies playing 30 or more games that had better sv % than Ortio.

There were the same number of goalies at the NHL level that had better sv % than Ortio had in the AHL. If Gillies has as weak a performance as a rookie pro as Ortio did last year most people will be disappointed.

His NHL performance to date has been hopeful and very inconsistent. Some great games but overall sv% of .908.

The Flames emergence as a Playoff team has messed up Ortio's career. Last year if the Flames would have been 10-10 after 20 games and out of playoff contention Ortio would have gotten his 20-30 NHL games to show if he was the real deal.

This year the Flames are a close to a cap team and are expected to make the playoffs. There is such a risk that Ortio comes in and goes 10-10 and the Flames miss the playoffs .... well obviously that would be a bad decision. Last year Ramo was the best backup in Flames history going 15-9-3 with .912 sv%. If the Flames had Ramo as Kipper's backup they would have done some serious winning.

The only way that Ortio starts more than 2-3 games is if he wins all his starts Carey price style or Ramo or Hiller get injured. Even if Ramo or Hiller get injured Ortio will only be used as a backup of last resort.

Would you expect that Ortio would:

1) get picked up by a playoff contending team? Say St.L replacing Berra as Backup.

2) If he got picked up would they plan to start him more than 10-15 games?


Hartley and the flames are not going to risk a Playoff spot for Ortio's development.