Nenshi stance on wearing the niqab

[Zarley]

Nenshi is off the mark on this issue. I fail to see how any progressive liberal minded person can support the wearing of the niqab or burka. Wearing of these items is a practice that is rooted in sexism and inequality and it should be discouraged.

Obviously I believe that people are free to dress as they please and I fully support this; If a woman decides to clothe herself in a veil, then so be it. The problem is that the majority of women who wear the veil do so under the influence of an extremely patriarchal culture and many do not have a choice in the matter. As a society, we should not be supporting this and allowing the practice to occur at a citizenship ceremony goes far beyond reasonable accommodation.

Court decisions in Canada have indicated that it is acceptable to require an individual to present their face uncovered under various circumstances in order to establish identity (eg. border checkpoints, police identification, testifying under oath in most cases, etc.). The citizenship ceremony should be considered another one of these situations. If a woman wishes to become a Canadian, she should unveil herself and present herself on an equal footing with other Canadians. As the SCC noted in their 2012 decision on the subject, "wearing the niqab is incompatible with the constitutional values of openness and religious neutrality in contemporary democratic, but diverse, Canada.”

Having said that, this issue is a distraction and not something that would factor greatly into my voting decision.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Nenshi is off the mark on this issue. I fail to see how any progressive liberal minded person can support the wearing of the niqab or burka. Wearing of these items is a practice that is rooted in sexism and inequality and it should be discouraged.

This guys hat is offensive to my grandmother's cooking. She slaved in that kitchen making we kids five-star home-cooked meals for years, and I don't want him incredulously worshipping a false god with noodly appendages that causes my family to suffer from delicious meatballs any further.

Perhaps we should drop the furor and just let people wear whatever textile they feel like wearing on their head.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Nenshi is off the mark on this issue. I fail to see how any progressive liberal minded person can support the wearing of the niqab or burka. Wearing of these items is a practice that is rooted in sexism and inequality and it should be discouraged.

Obviously I believe that people are free to dress as they please and I fully support this; If a woman decides to clothe herself in a veil, then so be it. The problem is that the majority of women who wear the veil do so under the influence of an extremely patriarchal culture and many do not have a choice in the matter. As a society, we should not be supporting this and allowing the practice to occur at a citizenship ceremony goes far beyond reasonable accommodation.

Court decisions in Canada have indicated that it is acceptable to require an individual to present their face uncovered under various circumstances in order to establish identity (eg. border checkpoints, police identification, testifying under oath in most cases, etc.). The citizenship ceremony should be considered another one of these situations. If a woman wishes to become a Canadian, she should unveil herself and present herself on an equal footing with other Canadians. As the SCC noted in their 2012 decision on the subject, "wearing the niqab is incompatible with the constitutional values of openness and religious neutrality in contemporary democratic, but diverse, Canada.”

Having said that, this issue is a distraction and not something that would factor greatly into my voting decision.

Shouldn't it always be a choice though? I am sure the way Mennonite women dress has a historical basis in patriarchy, but we would never think of telling them that they can't dress that way.

The niqab is actually banned from some public places in Saudi Arabia. Think about that. If you ever want to make the right decision about something, just do the opposite of them.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The niqab is actually banned from some public places in Saudi Arabia. Think about that. If you ever want to make the right decision about something, just do the opposite of them.

They are banned in France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

Brussels followed suit soon after France, banning full-face veils in 2011, an offense punished by a $197 fine or up to seven days in jail. The bill was passed almost unanimously in the Belgian parliament, with lawmakers citing security reasons for the ban, and claiming the veil is a tool of oppression.

[dino7c]

He is free to have an opinion...not sure why its more important than anyone else's

He should stick to planning city projects like sodosopa

[FlamesAddiction]

As well as some public areas of Egypt.

I think they are actually only banned in certain religious areas of Saudi Arabia now that I read more on it.

[EldrickOnIce]

They are outright bans in all public places in France and Belgium.
Puts removal of it for citizenship ceremony into some perspective.

Regardless, I can never figure out where I am sipposed to stand in regard to any issues like these. I personally find the practice incredibly sexist, and therefore thought I was on the right side - supporting bans on symbols of this type of oppression against women. My recollection of seeing this is where a face shrouded female is dutifully walking 10 paces behind her husband. I find it so offensive.
But it seem I have missed the mark again

[Hockey Fan #751]

I do think it would be funny if for any non-city related question Nenshi got in a media availability he responded with "sorry, I don't have time to answer that, I need to run the city."

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Nenshi is off the mark on this issue. I fail to see how any progressive liberal minded person can support the wearing of the niqab or burka. Wearing of these items is a practice that is rooted in sexism and inequality and it should be discouraged.



Obviously I believe that people are free to dress as they please and I fully support this; If a woman decides to clothe herself in a veil, then so be it. The problem is that the majority of women who wear the veil do so under the influence of an extremely patriarchal culture and many do not have a choice in the matter. As a society, we should not be supporting this and allowing the practice to occur at a citizenship ceremony goes far beyond reasonable accommodation.



Court decisions in Canada have indicated that it is acceptable to require an individual to present their face uncovered under various circumstances in order to establish identity (eg. border checkpoints, police identification, testifying under oath in most cases, etc.). The citizenship ceremony should be considered another one of these situations. If a woman wishes to become a Canadian, she should unveil herself and present herself on an equal footing with other Canadians. As the SCC noted in their 2012 decision on the subject, "wearing the niqab is incompatible with the constitutional values of openness and religious neutrality in contemporary democratic, but diverse, Canada.”



Having said that, this issue is a distraction and not something that would factor greatly into my voting decision.

How does preventing a woman getting citizenship help her not to be repressed?

Also, you do realize that they must show their face to get citizenship and it is just the ceremonial oath that is in question here. The oath that is so sacred to the conservatives that they faked a ceremony with public servants a few years ago

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

They are banned in France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

Regardless of what you think about the niqab/burka, Europe is not the progressive utopia we would like to think of on issues of race, especially blacks and arabs or mahgrebs or Africans in general.

[Kjesse]

Like him or not, most would agree Nenshi is generally thoughtful. I find it very surprising that he supports the wearing of a niqab at all. The niqab comes from the desire of men to not have other men looking at "their" women. I don't know how that is supportable even if it comes associated with religious ideas.

I suppose some women want to wear it, and that's fine if they do. You can't oppress someone who doesn't even realize it.

[Bunk]

^ I don't think he was explicitly expressing any support (or not) for wearing of the Niqab. He was commenting on how the conservatives are using the issue to drive a wedge, which is damaging, cynical and a waste of time.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Here's my problem. And I obviously support our mayor in general. But this:

“This is unbelievably dangerous stuff. I spoke with a group of mayors and councillors from all over Alberta last week… I stood up and said this is disgusting and it is time for us to say stop it — it’s time for us to say this is enough,”

All you've done is express moral outrage. For some people, that is enough to convince them that you have a serious view on the subject. Those people are stupid. Please tell me why you occupy the position you do so I have some basis for agreeing or disagreeing with other than "you seem upset".

[Locke]

And here I was expecting pics of Nenshi modeling a Niqab.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by edslunch

How does preventing a woman getting citizenship help her not to be repressed?

You're making an assumption that women would choose not to go through with getting their citizenship rather than revealing their face. I doubt that would be the case and the vast majority would continue on with getting their citizenship. Those few who refuse would still be permanent residents subject to the protections of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Originally Posted by edslunch

Also, you do realize that they must show their face to get citizenship and it is just the ceremonial oath that is in question here. The oath that is so sacred to the conservatives that they faked a ceremony with public servants a few years ago

Symbolic gestures are important. The goal of this policy is to illustrate to these women, and more importantly to their male family members, that wearing of the niqab is incompatible with Canadian values. If they are showing their face to gain citizenship anyway, what is the harm in requiring this at the ceremony?

The staged ceremony was idiotic but I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand.

[Cgy Girl]

Originally Posted by starseed

Everyone in Toronto is insanely jealous of Calgary because of Nenshi. He is the perfect example of what a community leader should be.

Because Calgarians care whether people in TO are jealous or not? What an odd comment/sentiment. I'm fairly sure the Federal Libs would welcome our mayor with open arms if he wants a national platform (which IMO does seem to be the case)

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Here's my problem. And I obviously support our mayor in general. But this:



All you've done is express moral outrage. For some people, that is enough to convince them that you have a serious view on the subject. Those people are stupid. Please tell me why you occupy the position you do so I have some basis for agreeing or disagreeing with other than "you seem upset".

He is arguing it's a waste of taxpayer money and it's not incorrect since the Conservatives are filing their second appeal after they lost the first one, and making it an election issue when no such issue exists.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

You're why democracy fails.

Actually, people like you are. Because to you, "democratic failure" means "doesn't agree with me".

And I largely agree with Nenshi - making this an issue is a waste of time.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Bunk

^ I don't think he was explicitly expressing any support (or not) for wearing of the Niqab. He was commenting on how the conservatives are using the issue to drive a wedge, which is damaging, cynical and a waste of time.

It's totally a wedge issue that (should be) largely irrelevant to this election campaign. If that's true then the Herald article is misrepresenting what he was getting at.

Interestingly enough though, by commenting on it he is giving the niqab issue an even higher profile.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

He is arguing it's a waste of taxpayer money and it's not incorrect since the Conservatives are filing their second appeal after they lost the first one, and making it an election issue when no such issue exists.

If so, then I think I agree with him, and wish he would just have said that in so many words. Nenshi is a very smart dude who can formulate reasonable positions backed by compelling arguments. I've seen him do it.