Leland Irving to attend Wild training camp on PTO

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I agree with that if it's a top 15-20 pick but Irving was drafted #26 and we didn't have another pick until late in the third round. The only goalies (that amounted to anything) that were drafted later on were Chad Johnson and James Reimer. They probably weren't on Sutter's radar and aren't very good anyway.

So in other words, don't waste picks on goalies?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

So in other words, don't waste picks on goalies?

That's not what I said but it is a good way to end up like Edmonton.

If you believe in the guy enough, you should pick him or someone else will.
This franchise got EXTREMELY lucky with Kiprusoff, it's hardly a model worth following. If he didn't work out, we would have a worse record with goalies than the Flyers.

[darthma]

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

That's not what I said but it is a good way to end up like Edmonton.

If you believe in the guy enough, you should pick him or someone else will.
This franchise got EXTREMELY lucky with Kiprusoff, it's hardly a model worth following. If he didn't work out, we would have a worse record with goalies than the Flyers.

The problem is you should never believe in an 18 year old goalie. They're almost always 6 to 8 years away from being a finished product.

And I'm not sure I understand your Edmonton comment. They had to do an almost infinite number of things wrong to end up where they are. Including spending a first on Dubnyk, actually getting lucky and having him develop, and then playing him behind one of the worst defensive teams in decades and giving up on him, and dumping him for nothing.

My supposition is that you ALWAYS have to get lucky to get an a star goalie. So you might as well spend your first rounders (and high second rounders) on positions that you can actually predict with some accuracy.

Look at the four goalies that played in the conference finals this year. Lundqvist 205th Overall, Bishop 85th (and traded to his current team for Cory Conacher and a 4th), Crawford 52nd overall, and Andersen 87th overall (after going undrafted in previous years).

And hey, the Flyers are in a league of their own for goalie problems. They had Bobrovsky, but dumped him for Ilya Bryzgalov! And they wasted 1st round draft picks on Jean-Marc Pelletier, Maxime Ouellet and Adam Morrison in the not so distant past as well. Great use of those firsts!

[dissentowner]

Terrible goalie, highly doubt he makes the Wild.

[polak]

Remember Justin Pogee? Or however you spelled it? Super-ultra-mega hype goalie bust.

History is full of goalies who were drafted with tons of hype who ended up not even getting a sniff of the NHL.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by polak

History is full of goalies who were drafted with tons of hype who ended up not even getting a sniff of the NHL.

I think these situations tend to stem from similar circumstances. They are either a) A Toronto Maple Leafs prospect/player, or B) An international goalie who played well against a Canadian team.

If the Leafs had a player like Gillies on his way, we'd never hear the end of him and he's likely end up playing this year just because. This is similarly true for Edmonton, but for different reasons. Toronto because it's the hockey epicenter of the world. Edmonton because it's the daycare epicenter of the hockey world.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by polak

Remember Justin Pogee? Or however you spelled it? Super-ultra-mega hype goalie bust.

History is full of goalies who were drafted with tons of hype who ended up not even getting a sniff of the NHL.

Pogge was not actually drafted with a lot of hype. 90th overall - so mid round pick. He got the hype because of who owned his rights (Leafs) and the WJs.

Goalie hype indeed goes up and down - and it is such a long development path most of it is a waste of time.

Look at Laurent Brossoit as a more recent example. Currently now being hugely over-rated by Oiler fans beacuse of one good season.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Pogge was not actually drafted with a lot of hype. 90th overall - so mid round pick. He got the hype because of who owned his rights (Leafs) and the WJs.

Goalie hype indeed goes up and down - and it is such a long development path most of it is a waste of time.

Look at Laurent Brossoit as a more recent example. Currently now being hugely over-rated by Oiler fans beacuse of one good season.

Yup. In terms of draft position, Pogge was 8th that year. It was definitely the World Juniors that made me notice him.

Drafted ahead of Pogge that year:
Al Montoya: 6th overall
Devan Dubnyk: 14th overall
Marek Schwarz: 17th overall
Cory Schnieder: 26th overall
David Shantz: 37th overall
Justin Peters: 38th overall
Jeff Glass: 89th overall

[Fire of the Phoenix]

I just don't think you can make any rules where goalies should and shouldn't be picked in the draft. I know they are hard to predict but I would still trust my scouts if they wanted to take a goalie, regardless of draft position. It could be frustrating waiting for them to develop but you can't pass over a guy that might not be there later because 'it's too early to pick a goalie'. Mason McDonald is a good example. If we don't take him at 34, we don't get him at all and we are left choosing from the leftovers in rounds 4-7. There were plenty of people here mad that we picked a G 'early' but the fact is if you always wait until the late rounds to draft one, you'll be left wanting 95% of the time. You can't bank on getting a Lundqvist or a Rinne with your 7th rounder just because two teams got lucky. If NYR and Nashville knew how good they would become, there is no way they wait until the last round to pick them. For every Lundqvist and Rinne there are hundreds drafted that late who don't amount to anything.

That being said, I would be leery of spending a top 10 pick on one but then I think about a guy like Carey Price. Not a common occurrence to be sure, but still enough to make me think twice about making rules about where to pick goalies. Get good scouts and trust them, that's all you can do.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Mason McDonald is a good example.

A great one.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think these situations tend to stem from similar circumstances. They are either a) A Toronto Maple Leafs prospect/player, or B) An international goalie who played well against a Canadian team.

If the Leafs had a player like Gillies on his way, we'd never hear the end of him and he's likely end up playing this year just because. This is similarly true for Edmonton, but for different reasons. Toronto because it's the hockey epicenter of the world. Edmonton because it's the daycare epicenter of the hockey world.

Flames fans are just as good at hyping their prospects as anyone else.

At one point the Flames had Irving and 3 other goalie prospects that were all better than Dubnyk.

In short, everyone likes their own goalie prospects. haha.

[darthma]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Pogge was not actually drafted with a lot of hype. 90th overall - so mid round pick. He got the hype because of who owned his rights (Leafs) and the WJs.

Goalie hype indeed goes up and down - and it is such a long development path most of it is a waste of time.

Look at Laurent Brossoit as a more recent example. Currently now being hugely over-rated by Oiler fans beacuse of one good season.

They traded Rask because they thought Pogge was the real deal. hehe

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

His game against the Canucks before Christmas in 2011 was fantastic. Quite the memory, with us beating Detroit the night before.

Many goalies can have a good game. Good to great depend on consistency, longer term effectiveness

[Jets4Life]

It's hit and miss. Rick DiPietro was one of the all-time draft busts. Same with Brian Finley, Brent Krahn, Pascal Leclaire, and Al Montoya. Then again, there have been high draft dicks that become #1 starters like Luongo, Lehtonen, Dubnyk, and Price.

Goalies are voodoo.

[dustygoon]

I think you pick a goalie where you have him rated no matter the round. My problem is the apparent approach when Irving and Macdonald were drafted. They wanted a goalie with those picks drafting for position rather than bpa.

[sureLoss]

Kevin Lalande also scores a PTO with the Wild. Need to pick up Matt Keetley and they would have the successors to Kiprusoff trio.:

Aaron Vickers @AAVickers
Former #Flames draft pick Kevin Lalande lands in Minnesota. He joins Leland Irving, another CGY pick. Both goalies. Both on PTO's.