National Post: ISIS and Rape

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It matters if your hope is that the behavior changes - pulling the wool over your eyes about motivations is intellectually lazy. This is an example of one of the worst instances of text-driven awful behavior but other examples occur everywhere in the world to various degrees, from garden variety misogyny to blinding young girls for trying to read books to supporting the murder of apostates. The faith really needs to confront some of the terrible tenets that exist within it and discard them.

[calgaryblood]

The Bible also condones rape and sex slavery, I don't see Christians rushing to rape and force sex slavery.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

The Bible also condones rape and sex slavery, I don't see Christians rushing to rape and force sex slavery.

Perhaps they need their own age of enlightenment.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

The Bible also condones rape and sex slavery, I don't see Christians rushing to rape and force sex slavery.

I'm not so sure Jesus (the guy who invented Christianity) ever said anything about rape being OK.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

The Bible also condones rape and sex slavery, I don't see Christians rushing to rape and force sex slavery.

Which part of the bible? The Old Testament condones much worse than that (and is far worse than the Qu'ran as a moral guidebook), but Christianity provides some interpretive tools that allow Christians to argue that those prescriptions don't apply. Similarly, you don't see a lot of Jews suggesting people be stoned for adultery. Those tenets have, for all intents and purposes and by the vast, vast majority of adherents been discarded. The same needs to happen with respect to the bad stuff in the Islamic tradition. Pretending that bad stuff doesn't exist in that tradition (or that no one is basing their behaviour on it) doesn't help.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Which part of the bible? The Old Testament condones much worse than that (and is far worse than the Qu'ran as a moral guidebook), but Christianity provides some interpretive tools that allow Christians to argue that those prescriptions don't apply. Similarly, you don't see a lot of Jews suggesting people be stoned for adultery. Those tenets have, for all intents and purposes and by the vast, vast majority of adherents been discarded. The same needs to happen with respect to the bad stuff in the Islamic tradition. Pretending that bad stuff doesn't exist in that tradition (or that no one is basing their behaviour on it) doesn't help.

Honest question, do you believe no Christians believe in the old Testament? The old testament condones raping 3 year olds and people still believe in that book. You don't see them marching around each State trying to take them over by killing, raping, and forcing women and kids into slavery.

Those tenets have, for all intents and purposes and by the vast, vast majority of adherents been discarded. The same needs to happen with respect to the bad stuff in the Islamic tradition.

Agreed.

Pretending that bad stuff doesn't exist in that tradition (or that no one is basing their behaviour on it) doesn't help

I don't think anyone is pretending it doesn't exist, it definitely exists and something needs to be done about it. Was just pointing out that while religion does play a major role, there are obviously other factors at play.

[PostandIn]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This is so annoying. First of all, you posted this immediately after I quoted directly from the teachings of the religion, condoning this behavior. It's patently obvious you're wrong.

I don't know where this meme got started or how it became fashionable but it makes absolutely no sense. Of course it "has to do" with religion - specific passages, tenets of a religious faith are the impetus for this behavior. The fact that there are other factors in play - economics, historical conflicts, ethnic feuds and whatever else you can think of - does not eliminate the major role religion plays in this behavior.

Dismissing them all as brutes - as if no matter what they believed, people from a certain part of the world are predisposed to barbarism somehow - smacks of the bigotry of low expectations.

In debates, Hitchens used to use the quote, “in the ordinary moral universe, the good will do the best they can, the worst will do the worst they can, but if you want to make good people do wicked things, you’ll need religion”. Apt.

Liberal elites primarily. People so busy being tolerant that they can't recognize clear and present danger that's right in front of them. This is why I have such a hard time understanding the likes of Chomsky, Greenwald, et al on this subject. Western colonialism is at the root of all this? Yeah - ok.

To quote Harris on this very subject "Specific ideas have specific consequences" and when your ideas are taken from a 9th century text that is believed by adherents to be the actual word of their perfect god and also that it clearly states that rape of pre-pubescent infidels is ok if not encouraged then no one should be surprised by these behaviours. I don't see a stronger cause and effect relationship.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I don't think anyone is pretending it doesn't exist, it definitely exists and something needs to be done about it. Was just pointing out that while religion does play a major role, there are obviously other factors at play.

Unfortunately, many people are pretending exactly this. Which is why you read or hear things like "this behaviour has nothing to do with Islam". As if there's no relationship whatsoever between the doctrines and the practice of those doctrines.

I obviously agree that there are myriad factors in play, it could hardly be otherwise in any civil society. But this is a major factor being frequently discounted on the basis of not wanting to offend the vast numbers of Muslims who practice their religion in a non-violent and largely unobjectionable way.

That's not a good reason for denying the obvious as horrors are being inflicted on huge numbers of people, many of them women and children, and almost all of them Muslim themselves.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I wholeheartedly agree, with one key differentiation. It's not the specific religion (though it's rife with violent themes), rather the central tenet to every religion: suspend reason and put a higher power above all else. It's that worldview that allows these people to gladly swallow down any any shred of humanity and it belongs to all religions (though not religions alone)

As an atheist myself, I still must point out that what you posted is wrong. Not all religions are like that. People can be bad anywhere. Some religions are (clearly) worse than others.

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

It's for that reason in particular I became atheist and realized my beliefs were more indoctrination than truth.

In some ways being an atheist really has nothing to do with religion, except for not believing in a 'supreme being(s)'. I know way more people who define themselves with a religion who are atheists. I am no different.

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

There are millions of very good people who are religious. That doesn't change the "goodness" of putting an imaginary person ahead of all laws and morality. Similar to the gun debate: millions of lawful gun owners, but guns still cause mass destruction

I am unsure what you mean about good people putting an imaginary person ahead of all laws and morals? I think you are mixing all religions with what this thread was originally about, a single religion associated with some terrible things. I think the better point is if a person with sex slaves (as the thread points out) can also be lawful and moral?

[normtwofinger]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

The old testament condones raping 3 year olds and people still believe in that book.

Really? Where does it say that?

[jeffporfirio]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

The old testament condones raping 3 year olds

I'm no Bible scholar, but this is the first time I have heard this.
Can you point us to the Book/verse

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

As an atheist myself, I still must point out that what you posted is wrong. Not all religions are like that. People can be bad anywhere. Some religions are (clearly) worse than others.

Current Islam is clearly worse than current Christianity, yes. Some of from text, most from culture. You simply cannot attribute these violent acts to the texts as all the major religions have violent texts (though clearly some more than others). There was a time when Christianity and Judaism were very violent religions too. The culture shapes the interpretation of a very contradictory text. The central belief amongst religions (with a some exceptions I'll grant you) is that human morality is second to that of a supreme being out beings. It's that core belief that forces them to suspend humanity and carry out inhumane acts.

In some ways being an atheist really has nothing to do with religion, except for not believing in a 'supreme being(s)'. I know way more people who define themselves with a religion who are atheists. I am no different.

I'm confused what your saying here. Does not the very condition of not being a theist have something to do with theism?

I am unsure what you mean about good people putting an imaginary person ahead of all laws and morals? I think you are mixing all religions with what this thread was originally about, a single religion associated with some terrible things. I think the better point is if a person with sex slaves (as the thread points out) can also be lawful and moral?

A single religion is responsible for the worst of acts perpetrated today. Yes. I'm specifically responding to Blankalls post about "has nothing to do with religion". I should have been more clear. I agree in some sense that it doesn't have to do specifically with the texts (though they're the tool here) but resurvey the bigger issue at play where a person's inherent humanity is displaced or censored by an imagined and reinforced one (religion).

In fact, that means I totally disagree with what he said, but my messaging was very confusing

[CaptainCrunch]

Look it doesn't matter if Islam goes through a whole reformation/rewrite of its scripture and rules. The crazies in ISIS are stuck in a 14th century self created interpretation, and for the radicals out there they will call any change a #######ization of the true faith and go to war with anyone who changes or follows a renewed text.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

The Bible also condones rape and sex slavery, I don't see Christians rushing to rape and force sex slavery.

The Book of Deuteronomy is pretty clear on rape except when it comes to slaves (pretty common practice 3000-4000 years ago).

[PostandIn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Look it doesn't matter if Islam goes through a whole reformation/rewrite of its scripture and rules. The crazies in ISIS are stuck in a 14th century self created interpretation, and for the radicals out there they will call any change a #######ization of the true faith and go to war with anyone who changes or follows a renewed text.

It totally matters that Islam goes through a reformation, as Christianity and Judaism have done, because Muslims are the only ones that will solve this problem. The west does not have enough bombs, soldiers and most importantly will to make this change. Unless nukes fly of course.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by PostandIn

It totally matters that Islam goes through a reformation, as Christianity and Judaism have done, because Muslims are the only ones that will solve this problem. The west does not have enough bombs, soldiers and most importantly will to make this change. Unless nukes fly of course.

That reformation won't happen within our lifetime though. The question truly is "how much worse can this get?"

Get used to the constant tragedy, it's here for the foreseeable future. It's a deal with it or accept it type thing. I really don't think the powers that be have the stomach or wherewithal to deal with it yet so...

Nor to marginalize it, it is a horrendous situation not unlike what the Nazis did all those decades ago. The main difference is the Nazis did it in secret where ISIS gleefully does it for all to see (many other differences as well obviously but that's not the point).

We are at a pivotal moment in western civilization, the only questions are how will we respond and how many millions of lives will this version of the holocaust claim?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

That reformation won't happen within our lifetime though. The question truly is "how much worse can this get?"

Get used to the constant tragedy, it's here for the foreseeable future. It's a deal with it or accept it type thing. I really don't think the powers that be have the stomach or wherewithal to deal with it yet so...

Nor to marginalize it, it is a horrendous situation not unlike what the Nazis did all those decades ago. The main difference is the Nazis did it in secret where ISIS gleefully does it for all to see (many other differences as well obviously but that's not the point).

We are at a pivotal moment in western civilization, the only questions are how will we respond and how many millions of lives will this version of the holocaust claim?

It's just so much more complicated nowadays than before. Your enemy was well defined.

It's hard to send a conventional army against a loose organization of organizations (Boko Haram, Al Qaeda, Isis, others).

[PostandIn]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

That reformation won't happen within our lifetime though. The question truly is "how much worse can this get?"

Get used to the constant tragedy, it's here for the foreseeable future. It's a deal with it or accept it type thing. I really don't think the powers that be have the stomach or wherewithal to deal with it yet so...

Nor to marginalize it, it is a horrendous situation not unlike what the Nazis did all those decades ago. The main difference is the Nazis did it in secret where ISIS gleefully does it for all to see (many other differences as well obviously but that's not the point).

We are at a pivotal moment in western civilization, the only questions are how will we respond and how many millions of lives will this version of the holocaust claim?

Agreed. The good news is that it has started already and there is some hope for future generations. This http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/06/africa...sident-speech/ is a significant step forward.

[terminator]

the amount of experts on the koran and islam on this forum is amazing.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by terminator

the amount of experts on the koran and islam on this forum is amazing.

Compared to other religious texts, it's a quick and easy read. It's not at all inscrutable - this is not a molecular biology textbook we're talking about here. I recommend it to you for perspective on these topics.