I think Ovechkin should get the Hart, do you? - Page 2 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

codynw · 03-04-2015, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I also think FWIW, that the Hart should be changed to be for skaters only. Why? Because conceptually goalies have such an edge in being more valuable to their team, and they already have an award for best goalie. If you look at all of the teams, I bet a significant amount count the goalie as their MVP. Frankly, I think a lot of writers feel the asme way, which is why goalies don't win more often.

Who cares if there's already an award for the best goalie? There's one for the best defenceman too. Should they not be eligible for the Hart either?

It's for the MVP. Shouldn't matter what position they play.

CroFlames · 03-04-2015, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

just a minor personal gear grinder, I don't like when goals/points/wins/whatever per game are used as a measuring stick in any sport, because longevity (which is an important aspect of overall greatness) inevitably hurts "per game" type stats. if Gretzky quits hockey right after his time in Edmonton, then his ppg and similar numbers are probably totally unassailable, but then he never gets to accumulate the gaudy career totals which to me are vastly more important as a comparative against other players.

when Ovie retires we can evaluate him firstly on his final numbers, and his dominance during his prime...but I'm betting if he plays into his late 30's he'll drop below a lot of those other hall of famers he's ahead of in gpg.

True, but I think context is important. Gretzky scored his 92 goals in the era of 9-7 victories, and there were 50 goal scorers galore. I think Ovie still ends up probably top 5 in goals when all is said and done, and I believe that to be a bigger accomplishment than the hard numbers suggest. Goalies have vastly improved over the last 15 years. Remember, Grant Fuhr played for us not too long ago...

That's why this year I believe he should get the Hart because scoring 50 is such a huge accomplishment. In my mind, him scoring 65 was comparable to an 80 goal year from the 80's.

Couple the inevitable 50 goals this year with leading the league in overall points and it adds to the scales in his favor.

I don't like giving the Hart to goalies anyway.

ForeverFlameFan · 03-04-2015, 10:13 AM

Ovechkin has Backstrom. Backstrom is probably the most underrated player in the NHL.

Price definitely deserves it this year.

Matata · 03-04-2015, 10:17 AM

I said yes, because I expect the Hart to go to a forward and the forward who leads in goals and points with name recognition is pretty much a shoe-in. I realize that is logic based entirely on cynicism, but that is how the NHL awards usually go.

GioforPM · 03-04-2015, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codynw

Who cares if there's already an award for the best goalie? There's one for the best defenceman too. Should they not be eligible for the Hart either?

It's for the MVP. Shouldn't matter what position they play.

D-man are different. Though I think there should be two awards so that defensive guys like a Langway get a crack again.

My point is that it's so much easier for a goalie to be the MVP, even if he's not the best player on the team. That sets them apart from defencemen.

And yes, I agree that, under the current format it doesn't matter. I'm talking about re-jigging the awards if I were in charge.

Fan in Exile · 03-04-2015, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

No.

Habs will win East because of Carey Price.
Without him, they are a bubble team.

That is valuable.

And the Capitals would be in the McDavid sweepstakes without Ovechkin.
Not saying Price wouldn't be a worthy winner but Ovechkin has been carrying his team for 10 years.

EldrickOnIce · 03-04-2015, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

And the Capitals would be in the McDavid sweepstakes without Ovechkin.

Fair point.

Regarding goaltenders for Hart, they rarely win - so no reason to not include them, imo.

codynw · 03-04-2015, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioforPM

D-man are different. Though I think there should be two awards so that defensive guys like a Langway get a crack again.

My point is that it's so much easier for a goalie to be the MVP, even if he's not the best player on the team. That sets them apart from defencemen.

And yes, I agree that, under the current format it doesn't matter. I'm talking about re-jigging the awards if I were in charge.

If it's so much easier why has it been so long since a goalie won? A goalie hasn't won the Hart since 2002 (and by that I mean 1998, cause Iginla won in 2002).

GioforPM · 03-04-2015, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codynw

If it's so much easier why has it been so long since a goalie won? A goalie hasn't won the Hart since 2002 (and by that I mean 1998, cause Iginla won in 2002).

Because IMO writers build in the assumptions I have described. I already said that.

And because of the Sid factor in a lot of years.

Dan02 · 03-04-2015, 11:40 AM

20 games left i'm reserving my opinion he's really cranked it up lately though.

Sylvanfan · 03-04-2015, 12:33 PM

If Devan Dubnyk plays 19 more games like his past 19, he might end up in the conversation. If you get to the end of the season, and he wins something crazy like 30 of his 36 starts, and has a 9-5 record from Arizona, and a GAA of 1.8 for the season and stupid high save percentage he will have a case. Minnesota looked dead and buried as the team finishing above Edmonton and Arizona until he showed up.

Based on today, Carey Price for Most Valuable to his team. Ovechkin is the best offensive player though.

CorsiHockeyLeague · 03-04-2015, 12:47 PM

Poor Pekka Rinne. In most years his is a Vezina performance, this year Carey Price is les habitants. Price wins.

Geeoff · 03-04-2015, 12:55 PM

I remember the last time a Habs goalie won the Hart over a player who led the league in goals and points. If Ovechkin were to win it, that would give him 4. GG Sidney.

dammage79 · 03-04-2015, 01:29 PM

Price or Ovi. I'd go with Ovi. When is the last time we had a 50 goal scorer not win the Hart?

EDIT: before someone chimes in on the difference between the Hart and the Rocket Richard trophy, I am aware of the differences thank-you.

united · 03-04-2015, 01:29 PM

List of goalies over the past 10 seasons with a higher save percentage than Carey Price's 93.51% this season:
Tim Thomas, 2010-11, with an NHL record 93.82%.

Price should win barring a collapse on his part. Montreal may not even be a playoff team without Price - certainly they would be fighting for a wildcard spot right now.

GioforPM · 03-04-2015, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dammage79

Price or Ovi. I'd go with Ovi. When is the last time we had a 50 goal scorer not win the Hart?

EDIT: before someone chimes in on the difference between the Hart and the Rocket Richard trophy, I am aware of the differences thank-you.

Stamkos got 60 and didn't win.

Jarome Iginla says hi as well. He lost to a Canadiens goalie who was nowhere near as good as price.

dammage79 · 03-04-2015, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Jarome Iginla says hi.

He lost to a Canadiens goalie who was nowhere near as good as price.

Looks like 09-10 was the last time when Hank Sedin won it over Crosby.

2012-2013 look like there were no awards handed out so and Asterix is needed there.

Har-Calgary · 03-05-2015, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Ovechkin has Backstrom. Backstrom is probably the most underrated player in the NHL.

Price definitely deserves it this year.

Can't believe this is the only poster who's brought this up so far. Backstrom is not only one of the best in the game but he does it on both ends. Before the season started, after Trotz got through training camp, he talked so much about how he couldn't believe that Backstrom didn't get more love in the best player in the game convos. He compared him to guys like Kopi and Toews, so far this year he's been better than both IMO. Ovie is still the Caps MVP but Backstrom was for the first half and then Ovie went crazy and started scoring goals every game. For the record I love Ovie, but I think him and Backs cancel each other out. I agree with another poster that it was a race between Kane and Price until Kane went down.

FlamesAddiction · 03-05-2015, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Har-Calgary

Can't believe this is the only poster who's brought this up so far. Backstrom is not only one of the best in the game but he does it on both ends. Before the season started, after Trotz got through training camp, he talked so much about how he couldn't believe that Backstrom didn't get more love in the best player in the game convos. He compared him to guys like Kopi and Toews, so far this year he's been better than both IMO. Ovie is still the Caps MVP but Backstrom was for the first half and then Ovie went crazy and started scoring goals every game. For the record I love Ovie, but I think him and Backs cancel each other out. I agree with another poster that it was a race between Kane and Price until Kane went down.

That was kind of my point about selecting Tavares over Ovechkin. The drop off in forward talent on the Islanders after Tavares is greater than on the Caps after Ovechkin (Backstrom being the case in point). Tavares is doing his best to elevate the players around him, most of which would be 2nd or 3rd liners on most teams (save for Strome who is still really young).

I think if you put Tavares with elite forwards, he could probably easily lead the league in scoring.

CroFlames · 03-05-2015, 10:53 AM

Ovi has 10 game winning goals this year. That is pretty valuable to a team.