Craig Button Pyramid (Team Construction)

[P-DAZZLE]

I've talked with someone who is in the Calgary sports media about this. He says that Button's philosophy was building up the middle, so you want to get Centres, a Goalie and Defensemen to do that. He said before Button was canned he had been working towards this and the roots of the good Flames teams from 2004 onward were somewhat a product of that. Obviously the Flames never found elite centres.
It is definitely a decent concept, as I think all Flames fans saw, having your best player on the wing without solid centres is not a championship formula. Every team that wins cups and contends year in year out is very strong up the middle.

[Oling_Roachinen]

That's just terrible pyramid planning. Pharaoh would be pissed.

[JiriHrdina]

Let's do this for the Oilers!

Schultz Klefbom Nurse (not on team currently)
RNH Leon
Scrivens
Eberle Hall
Ference

So really they are missing 6 of the 9 spots right now in terms of guys actually being able to fill the identified key spots. They have 0 top 4 D, 1 centre RNH, no goalies and two wingers.

They will likley fill one spot this draft whether it is at centre or D, but it is still remarkable that a team with this many high picks has THIS many glaring gaps and little coming in the system to fill them.

Turrible.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by T@T

Sometimes he seems OK I guess but then he goes off on a mental tangents like "rebuilds are 15 years" or crucifying Rielly is for saying things just about any 20 year old would.

To me he acts like he's the end all of hockey minds but yet when he had the chance he failed miserably.

Who told you that?

Don't think King ever liked Button. Craig was hired before King and it was obvious King never viewed him as "his" guy. Soon after Sutter was hired as coach it became apparent Button was going to be shown the door. Doubt if King trusted him with much.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by P-DAZZLE

I've talked with someone who is in the Calgary sports media about this. He says that Button's philosophy was building up the middle, so you want to get Centres, a Goalie and Defensemen to do that. He said before Button was canned he had been working towards this and the roots of the good Flames teams from 2004 onward were somewhat a product of that. Obviously the Flames never found elite centres.
It is definitely a decent concept, as I think all Flames fans saw, having your best player on the wing without solid centres is not a championship formula. Every team that wins cups and contends year in year out is very strong up the middle.

And yet he ran our future #1 centre out of town for nothing. Great execution of his philosophy there.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Let's do this for the Oilers!

Schultz Klefbom Nurse (not on team currently)
RNH Leon
Scrivens
Eberle Hall
Ference

So really they are missing 6 of the 9 spots right now in terms of guys actually being able to fill the identified key spots. They have 0 top 4 D, 1 centre RNH, no goalies and two wingers.

They will likley fill one spot this draft whether it is at centre or D, but it is still remarkable that a team with this many high picks has THIS many glaring gaps and little coming in the system to fill them.

Turrible.

I'll defend the Oilers here...

Nurse and Provorov could fill 2/3 of their D problems if they pan out.
They have the wingers + RNH though that line needs to become more defensive-minded.
Draisatl has the upside/IQ but he's got to become much better as a skater.
Brossoit might be their goalie.
Klefbom seems like he can become good enough to be that last Dman at the bottom. (and so is Petry if they can retain him).

So maybe they're not that terrible. But still a long ways away. A surprise playoff appearance would go a long ways in bringing in free agents/buying time though.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I'll defend the Oilers here...

Nurse and Provorov could fill 2/3 of their D problems if they pan out.
They have the wingers + RNH though that line needs to become more defensive-minded.
Draisatl has the upside/IQ but he's got to become much better as a skater.
Brossoit might be their goalie.
Klefbom seems like he can become good enough to be that last Dman at the bottom. (and so is Petry if they can retain him).

So maybe they're not that terrible. But still a long ways away. A surprise playoff appearance would go a long ways in bringing in free agents/buying time though.

Brossoit will not be their goalie. The guy will not be an NHL goalie unless it is a back-up at best. And he's the best goalie in their system. Terrible.
So let's agree that they have 1/4 d spots filled with Klefbom. They have 1 centre and the two wingers. They will fill another spot this draft and potentially have another centre with Leon.
So at best they are still short 4 key positions. Brutal for a team that has been at the top of the draft for as long as they have.

[SebC]

This thing looks more like a somewhat arbitrary overcomplication to me than it resemebles anything insightful.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Who told you that?

Don't think King ever liked Button. Craig was hired before King and it was obvious King never viewed him as "his" guy. Soon after Sutter was hired as coach it became apparent Button was going to be shown the door. Doubt if King trusted him with much.

Well,I'll say this. It involved 2 golf carts, a lot of booze and 3 members of the flames. You have to remember when King joined the team he was a newspaper guy and basically knew nothing about hockey operations.

He might have been a little gun shy in stepping on Button's shoes.

[Plett25]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Let's do this for the Oilers!

Schultz Klefbom Nurse (not on team currently)
RNH Leon
Scrivens
Eberle Hall
Ference

So really they are missing 6 of the 9 spots right now in terms of guys actually being able to fill the identified key spots. They have 0 top 4 D, 1 centre RNH, no goalies and two wingers.

They will likley fill one spot this draft whether it is at centre or D, but it is still remarkable that a team with this many high picks has THIS many glaring gaps and little coming in the system to fill them.

Turrible.

[powderjunkie]

Isn't it easier to say:

Goaltending + defense + depth down the middle.

Two of the three have to be elite and the other needs to be great.

[Northendzone]

I think some of you need to let go of the button hatred, it is has been years....a person can learn more over time.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

I think some of you need to let go of the button hatred, it is has been years....a person can learn more over time.

Well, Button has certainly had lots of chances since '03 to learn on the job working for NHL teams…

…Oh… wait.

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

I think some of you need to let go of the button hatred, it is has been years....a person can learn more over time.

Never!

[Mony]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Let's do this for the Oilers!

Schultz Klefbom Nurse (not on team currently)
RNH Leon
Scrivens
Eberle Hall
Ference

So really they are missing 6 of the 9 spots right now in terms of guys actually being able to fill the identified key spots. They have 0 top 4 D, 1 centre RNH, no goalies and two wingers.

They will likley fill one spot this draft whether it is at centre or D, but it is still remarkable that a team with this many high picks has THIS many glaring gaps and little coming in the system to fill them.

Turrible.

IMO the only Oiler on the team that is currently a top 4 D is Petry (second pairing). Klefbom could very well become a second pairing guy as well and Nurse could be a top pairing guy, but Klefbom and Nurse are still question marks because they are developing. The only one that's confirmed is Petry, which just shows how much work the Oilers still need to do on their blueline. Not too sure about who their #4 D is, all the ones left on the roster scream bottom pairing to me. Scrivens is a backup, their goalie prospects are hardly elite/great so they'll have to find a goalie some other way. RNH I think is a #2C. Leon isn't anywhere near close but I think he's a #2C if developed properly, so then they're still lacking a #1 unless McDavid or Eichel can come in and be developed properly. Hall and Eberle will be nice to have on wing IF they ever learn a two-way game that doesn't involve coasting. So basically the Oilers have to find a way to DEVELOP a bunch of their holes properly on D (they seem to be doing a good job with Nurse and Klefbom), find a way to salvage Eberle/Hall and teach them a solid complete game (I don't think they can), Yakupov has some time left but IMO you're not getting a good winger out of him anymore, oh, and magically find a #1 starting goaltender. And maybe develop Leon properly, they're on the right track putting him back in the WHL after screwing him up for 30+ games. Laying it all out like this, you know they're gonna be out of the playoffs for at least a few more years. At best.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Who told you that?

Don't think King ever liked Button. Craig was hired before King and it was obvious King never viewed him as "his" guy. Soon after Sutter was hired as coach it became apparent Button was going to be shown the door. Doubt if King trusted him with much.

Exactly it was a very dysfunctional time where guys kept inheriting people they didn't hire.

Bremner hired Button and was fired, King inherited Button, Button inherited Brian Sutter as a coach

Complete mess.

Nobody could make any sort of decisions with long term implications, the team was rudderless.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

And yet he ran our future #1 centre out of town for nothing. Great execution of his philosophy there.

I think even Marc Savard would admit how much of a wank he was in Calgary. Refused to show up in shape. Sulked all the time.

He had to go.

Shame that reputation had his value at almost zero when he left.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by T@T

Can you expand on this? I was told Ken King felt he gave Button too much power over operations.

You mean besides the fact the Flames had a payroll budget of about half what the top teams in the league operated under?

I don't really fault the management of the Flames during the Coates and Button era except for their draft record. Small market Canadian teams were all operating under a severe handicap in those days.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think even Marc Savard would admit how much of a wank he was in Calgary. Refused to show up in shape. Sulked all the time.

He had to go.

Shame that reputation had his value at almost zero when he left.

Yeah, I hope the folks here who are still sore about the Savard trade aren't the same ones saying the Flames should stay away from Chris Stewart. Because that's the trajectory Savard was on when the Flames moved him.

[PantherExtreme]

Hmm button is pretty bang on with this pyramid. It is a lot like my good-player-circle theory. You need 2 top pairing D, 2 second pairing D, a top 10 goalie, and then you circle around for two #1Cs. Always circling, like a carousel. You get on, you pay the quarter. It goes up, and down. and around. And 2 #1 assistant coaches. All good things,