QOTD: Which teams are tanking?

[ForeverFlameFan]

-Buffalo clearly is.
-Edmonton and Toronto are trying, they just naturally suck.
- Arizona is on full tank mode now, pretty much solidified it by trading Dubnyk. Also like Drury said, lots of kids were ready to play on that lineup, but the Coyotes went with the veterans.

[FlamesAddiction]

Buffalo is blatantly tanking.

Edmonton I think is honestly trying not to, they are just really that bad.

I think Arizona is going to go full tank at the trade deadline.

[troutman]

None, if you are talking about the players.

Some GMs may have purposely designed a team to fail, but I think all players want to win.

[blankall]

The flames shouldn't be pointing fingers. We are way below the cap and what we can afford to spend. The only thing that separates us from those teams is being blessed with a group of great players that came out of nowhere. I'm talking about Gaudreau, Brodie, Giordano, etc. Without their emergence and our youth playing better than expected, we are a bottom feeder being led by Stajan, Glencross, and Hudler. On paper we were probably the biggest tankers of all at the beginning of the season.

[Robbob]

I still think Edmonton is. Looking at the box score from last night the core is completely checked out. It is the bottom half of the roster carrying the team.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

The flames shouldn't be pointing fingers. We are way below the cap and what we can afford to spend. The only thing that separates us from those teams is being blessed with a group of great players that came out of nowhere. I'm talking about Gaudreau, Brodie, Giordano, etc. Without their emergence and our youth playing better than expected, we are a bottom feeder being led by Stajan, Glencross, and Hudler. On paper we were probably the biggest tankers of all at the beginning of the season.

If you are saying the Flames were tanking on paper at the beginning of the year you are nuts. In no way, shape or form could they be accused of trying to get worse for McDavid.

Giordano was already really good, for a number of years. Absent injury he would have been a Norris candidate last year. He was one spot short of the Olympic team. Monahan had established himself. Backlund was coming off a career year.

They signed Raymond, who was supposed to be better. They signed Setoguchi who they hoped would produce. They signed Bollig who they thought could contribute. They signed Hiller who was one of the best FA goalies out there. Signing experienced vets is the opposite of tanking.

On paper, yes we didn't expect a PO spot. I thought they'd wind up about 5th from the bottom. But there's a difference between being not very good in a rebuilding year and tanking, which is putting together a team designed to lose (like Pittsburgh did when they drafted Mario).

[Coach]

Originally Posted by blankall

The flames shouldn't be pointing fingers. We are way below the cap and what we can afford to spend. The only thing that separates us from those teams is being blessed with a group of great players that came out of nowhere. I'm talking about Gaudreau, Brodie, Giordano, etc. Without their emergence and our youth playing better than expected, we are a bottom feeder being led by Stajan, Glencross, and Hudler. On paper we were probably the biggest tankers of all at the beginning of the season.

Except for signing a proven goaltender and bringing in veteran forwards/defence to drive competition for spots on the big club. Hiller, Bollig, Setoguchi, Raymond, Engelland were all brought here for this reason IMO. They were short term signings for relatively cheap with likely little intention for them to be part of the team long-term. But having them meant that we weren't left with no choice but to ice an inexperienced line-up, even though the inexperienced ones (Jooris, Gaudreau, Granlund) ended up supplementing those players, I'm pretty sure that was the whole point of bringing them in.

This is the biggest difference IMO.

Edmonton gifted (again) roster spots to players who either didn't earn it or weren't ready for it, and either management is too stupid to see it (I refuse to believe even EDM's crew is really this dense) or have done it on purpose. It's only furthered by the fact that they have passed on acquiring (For FREE) players who could help them now and even possibly in the future (Chipchura, Richards, Olsen) and actually talking about McDavid like he's already part of the squad before Christmas even came around. They haven't done anything to improve their team, even potentially long term, other than diving for the top pick. They've even gone so far as to trade the one player that actually had some competitiveness.

If the Flames were terrible and did nothing to try and change it, even for the future, you would have a point. But that's a hypothetical, the terribleness of the Oilers is for real.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Players don't tank, management does. Edmonton and Buffalo have been in full tank mode all season. Arizona and Carolina have been close. Toronto is considering it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by New Era

Players don't tank, management does. Edmonton and Buffalo have been in full tank mode all season. Arizona and Carolina have been close. Toronto is considering it.

I'm tired of this argument. Players may not 'tank' in the traditional sense that people are expecting, but come on, watch some of these teams, the players are putting in the absolute minimum effort and playing out the string in anticipation of golf season.

Thats basically tanking, but call it what you want the end result is the same.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm tired of this argument. Players may not 'tank' in the traditional sense that people are expecting, but come on, watch some of these teams, the players are putting in the absolute minimum effort and playing out the string in anticipation of golf season.

Thats basically tanking, but call it what you want the end result is the same.

It is management's decisions that impact the players. Having a crap coach running the show can really break the spirit of the team. Seeing players that give a #### shipped out of town has the same affect. The players go out there and try to do their best, but once you have your spirit broken it is hard to recover from that state.

[Jacks]

Edmonton is a weird case.

They spend all their money on long term free agents in the offseason which would suggest they aren't tanking.

Play half the season with a raw rookie as their second line centre, tanking.

Fire the worst coach in recent recorded history, not tanking.

Pass on Chipchura when they are playing AHL centres, tanking.

Trade for Roy who is a clear improvement, not tanking.

Trade away Perron for a draft pick, tanking.

This can all be explained because the dimwits running the team have no idea what they are doing.

[Poe969]

I guess we can agree that it's management who "tank" and players just stop caring. I guess it would be hard to play for a team that doesn't care... Some players look disinterested though and it's the fans that suffer the most because of it. And the good prospects who get drafted by the oilers, the suffer the most.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by New Era

It is management's decisions that impact the players. Having a crap coach running the show can really break the spirit of the team. Seeing players that give a #### shipped out of town has the same affect. The players go out there and try to do their best, but once you have your spirit broken it is hard to recover from that state.

I agree.

Evidence = Edmonton Oilers.

Now, I stated that the Oilers are not tanking, but they used to. For a really long time. You dont get 3 #1 overall picks without a little 'internal directive.'

But yes, once the spirit is broken its tough to mend. Especially when management keeps crapping on it by shipping out dissenters who happen to be good players in exchange for magic beans and whispered promises.

At the same time though, when a team is well and truly out of it by Halloween then yeah, the players are going to start mailing it in. Who wouldnt?

If you showed up for work in the new year and by February your entire corporate year was shot straight to hell but you're going to keep getting paid and you cant be fired as long as you keep showing up and your boss tells you 'better luck next year' who wouldnt mail it in?

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I don't believe for a second that any group of 23 professionals can come together and decide to purposely lose games when their very futures are on the line.....Therefore no teams are intentionally losing but there certainly some poorly constructed groups which leads to losing a lot. That's what we are seeing in my opinion.

I think tanking is a term that applies to team management only. It's putting a team together with the intention of losing. Or not making moves to improve the team when they're available. Or leaving a coach in place who the players have tuned out. Also making lateral moves that clearly won't help, to distract from the fact that the team is designed to fail, is kind of like painting your tank with camouflage paint.

The term for players or coaches intentionally losing games is 'throwing games'. Typically only known to happen in illegal gambling situations. And fortunately I don't think we've ever seen NHL teams throwing games.

Tanking on the other hand, I think we are seeing for sure. Buffalo management set up their tank a full year in advance.

I don't think Edmonton set out to tank in October... but by mid November it was on. Otherwise Eakins gets canned much earlier. Draisaitl doesn't play past nine games. They pick up some guys on waivers who actually play center. They make a trade to address the problems, etc, etc.

Arizona traded their best goalie away, and now run out a guy who has lost all confidence every game. That is management tanking.

Carolina's players have picked things up, which is currently masking management's tank job for now... but I bet they're looking to move some of those players to get the tank back on track. We'll see over the next couple weeks.

I don't think Toronto planned to tank... but they're embracing it now. Just floating the rumors out there that they want to move Phaneuf and Kessel is sending the team into a death spiral. Leaking stuff like that to the Toronto media is like putting their already fragile team into a wood chipper.

Will other teams join the tank? It's basically too late to make up the ground that Edmonton and Buffalo have so there isn't much point, but I guess every spot you drop helps your odds in the lottery, so I expect the Devils, Philly and maybe more to get in on the action soon.

[lifetime_flamesfan]

Voted Arizona, Friedman was on the FAN960 a number of months ago (before the new ownership took control of the team), saying he had heard that the new owners wanted in the McDavid sweepstakes and if the current GM wasn't willing then they would find a new one.

but....

Buffalo started tanking last season
Edmonton decided to start tanking again this year after a bad start. They could make one trade of either Eberle or Yakupov and the Oilers would be a lot better.
Toronto is starting to tank now

[Erick Estrada]

It looked to me like some Sabres players weren't putting in a full effort and Taylor Hall isn't playing like the guy that was a point a game player previous seasons. He looks pretty defeated. No players want to lose but winning involves a lot of hard work and when players/teams they realize they are going nowhere it's a lot harder to put in the hard work and effort required to outplay/outwork opposition that really wants/needs the two points.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Buff

Very true. Buffalo is poorly constructed almost on purpose. They aren't looking for the worst players so they lose, they're looking for young inexperienced guys who won't carry them to the playoffs yet so that they have a better chance at the top pick.

It depends on how you look at tanking. If you believe that the players are losing on purpose, then you're out to lunch. If you believe that management has chosen to build the team with certain players that won't help their chances of winning, then yes, teams are tanking. The latter they can call rebuilding, but it's really just a way to get a strong chance at a good young player or two who can help rebuild your team into a strong for years to come.

Signing or trading for Moulson, Gionta, Meszarojs, and Gorges this summer kind of goes against your theory though. How much more could they really have done? Your the worst team in the league. Getting big names through free agency and even trade is very difficult. You also don't want to mortgage your future trading away high valued future assets for immediate help. I just don't see evidence that Buffalo tried to tank. It's just funny Buffalo probably signed better players than us in the off season yet people use the Flames signings as proof were not tanking and Buffalo is immidiately named tankers.

[savardandjokinen]

I did Edmonton because they've been doing that since number 99!

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Scoutski

I don't think any management group has come to the players and asked them to do anything other than play their best. However I think some teams, and specifically Buffalo have set their team up with a "long-term mentality" and have knowingly sacrificed an ability to compete this year.

Yep. Gearing your franchise for long-term success rather than short-term =/= tanking. Or else the Flames were tanking when they traded Iginla and Bouwmeester for picks and prospects.

[#-3]

Went with Tor.

I think the other 3 teams just aren't that good, they have all looked better in past years with higher quality goaltending that they are not getting this year, but I wouldn't call that a planned tank.

Toronto should be better than they are, they just aren't trying.