WWII Japanese bomb discovered in BC

[nik-]

Probably too harsh. Regardless, there's a budding superpower across a pretty narrow sea that hasn't forgot the past. They're going to want the Americans close. Japan should worry about their own police hiding crime stats to save face before they worry about military bases and crime around them.

[Coach]

All parties did terrible things in WWII. It's no excuse for deplorable behavior by anyone 70 years later.

[nik-]

No excuse for it, that's for sure.

[Barnes]

The Americans tested a bomb that was filled with bats carrying timed incendiary devices. The bombs would be dropped at altitude and open mid air. The bats would fly out and hide in little spaces of mostly wooden Japanese buildings at sunrise. The incendiary devices were timed to ignite midday.

Worked really well. The Americans almost burned the base down where testing was taking place when a bunch of them escaped.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by nik-

Probably too harsh. Regardless, there's a budding superpower across a pretty narrow sea that hasn't forgot the past. They're going to want the Americans close. Japan should worry about their own police hiding crime stats to save face before they worry about military bases and crime around them.

I have been to Okinawa and the American military presence is overwhelming. I saw with my own two eyes how they treat locals, definitely like second class citizens. Not all of them, but the good majority of these U.S. servicemen are 18-21 year olds who just want to fire guns, party, and meet (read: harass) women. You see it all the time, especially in Naha on a Saturday night on Kokusai-dori. They litter, they steal, they're loud, and don't always respect the culture. Anyone who has been to Japan will know that Japanese culture (outside of the major cities especially) is reservedness, quiet, and respect. That is often violated on a day-to-day basis.

Then, during the day, any loud noises are usually loud, obnoxious helicopter drills and fighter jets flying overhead, disrupting the natural peacefulness of island itself. You have to get out of Naha and head north to really get a better sense of nature in Okinawa.

Compound that by 70 years of permanent stay and a refusal to leave and you have a population that is fed up and wants them out, and it's fairly easy to understand and see why. The base there is a blight on Okinawa and an archaic position for a satellite base buildup. The U.S. has so many different military facilities across Japan, I can't see why this one, which has caused so much grief and concern, needs to be continued.

[Bill Bumface]

Wait.

Are people in here saying that because Japan did some bad stuff in the 40's little kids decades later that are raped don't deserve pity?

wtf...

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Wait.

Are people in here saying that because Japan did some bad stuff in the 40's little kids decades later that are raped don't deserve pity?

wtf...

person......

[nik-]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Wait.

Are people in here saying that because Japan did some bad stuff in the 40's little kids decades later that are raped don't deserve pity?

wtf...

I didn't say the victims don't deserve pity. I said I have no pity for them wanting the Americans to leave. And I pretty clearly stated that.

Originally Posted by nik-

I feel about zero pity for the Japanese who want the Americans out of their bases.

Please don't insert your own narrative.

[jammies]

Okinawa is in a strategic location between China and North America. Realistic solutions to the inexcusable behaviour of the American base personnel should start from a realistic basis, not on ridiculous assertions that this particular base is redundant, nor on the irrelevant basis of the locals not wanting it there.

So long as they have a legal right to be there - which they do, agreements signed under duress or not - the Okinawans had better think of other ways to curb the behaviour of the base personnel. Maybe try the Cuban solution - utter isolation of the base from the rest of the island.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by jammies

Okinawa is in a strategic location between China and North America. Realistic solutions to the inexcusable behaviour of the American base personnel should start from a realistic basis, not on ridiculous assertions that this particular base is redundant, nor on the irrelevant basis of the locals not wanting it there.

So long as they have a legal right to be there - which they do, agreements signed under duress or not - the Okinawans had better think of other ways to curb the behaviour of the base personnel. Maybe try the Cuban solution - utter isolation of the base from the rest of the island.

Did the Cubans isolate the bases or did the US military isolate the bases.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by nik-

Probably too harsh. Regardless, there's a budding superpower across a pretty narrow sea that hasn't forgot the past. They're going to want the Americans close. Japan should worry about their own police hiding crime stats to save face before they worry about military bases and crime around them.

Originally Posted by jammies

Okinawa is in a strategic location between China and North America. Realistic solutions to the inexcusable behaviour of the American base personnel should start from a realistic basis, not on ridiculous assertions that this particular base is redundant, nor on the irrelevant basis of the locals not wanting it there.

So long as they have a legal right to be there - which they do, agreements signed under duress or not - the Okinawans had better think of other ways to curb the behaviour of the base personnel. Maybe try the Cuban solution - utter isolation of the base from the rest of the island.

Are you serious? You think Okinawans are irrelevant in this discussion? You have go to be kidding me. How would you like it if the American's set up shop in and around Calgary and did the same thing? Overwhelming military presence, thousands of soldiers bringing obnoxious behaviour to our communities, raping women, and destroying the environment? Please tell me you're joking with this imperialist, arrogant attitude.

And the defense of Japan can be better served from closer locations to mainland japan, such as from Kyushu, Honshu or Hokkaido. If you're taking about a strategic buffer between China and North America, you need to start that conversation with Taiwan, not Okinawa.

[nik-]

Imperialist, arrogant attitudes are the reason the Americans are in Okinawa in the first place.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Are you serious? You think Okinawans are irrelevant in this discussion?

The Americans have been there for 70 years over their objections, so I guess the answer is obvious.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

And the defense of Japan can be better served from closer locations to mainland japan, such as from Kyushu, Honshu or Hokkaido. If you're taking about a strategic buffer between China and North America, you need to start that conversation with Taiwan, not Okinawa.

Okinawa was taken by the Americans in WWII precisely because it was necessary as a staging point to invade Japan. Don't let history colour your perception of what is and isn't strategic though.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by jammies

The Americans have been there for 70 years over their objections, so I guess the answer is obvious.

Nice context spin. You were stating your opinion earlier, not the American experience.

And for the record, the positions of Okinawans are not irrelevant. Shinzo Abe (Japanese PM) has largely been assisting Okinawans and their positions, supporting the move of the Marine Corps Air Station out of Futenma into a reclaimed land location, providing Okinawans $2.9 billion in support, and specifically saying in his January speech to the Diet "We will engage in these matters with the stance of "doing everything possible," taking into consideration the feelings of the people of Okinawa."

The Obama administration has also agreed to forces realignment in the area, including adjusting troop numbers from Okinawa to Guam and Hawaii.

Maybe you should visit the island sometime and see just how irrelevant it is.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Did the Cubans isolate the bases or did the US military isolate the bases.

Both.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by jammies

Okinawa was taken by the Americans in WWII precisely because it was necessary as a staging point to invade Japan. Don't let history colour your perception of what is and isn't strategic though.

Necessary for who? The Chinese? Or the Americans? Read your history. It was captured by Americans to launch bombing raids on mainland Japan, not China.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Nice context spin. You were stating your opinion earlier, not the American experience.

And for the record, the positions of Okinawans are not irrelevant. Shinzo Abe (Japanese PM) has largely been assisting Okinawans and their positions, supporting the move of the Marine Corps Air Station out of Futenma into a reclaimed land location, providing Okinawans $2.9 billion in support, and specifically saying in his January speech to the Diet "We will engage in these matters with the stance of "doing everything possible," taking into consideration the feelings of the people of Okinawa."

The Obama administration has also agreed to forces realignment in the area, including adjusting troop numbers from Okinawa to Guam and Hawaii.

Maybe you should visit the island sometime and see just how irrelevant it is.

I wasn't stating anyone's opinion at all, I was stating observed fact. The Okinawans are against having American bases. The bases are there, and will continue to be there. Therefore, their opinion is irrelevant to the continued presence of said bases.

Did you know that the area where the Americans are moving their base also has the local population against their presence? Yet the move is going ahead anyway. The speeches and promises of politicians are theatre designed to disguise the reality that the American military wants and needs a presence on Okinawa, and the Japanese and American governments see the necessity for that presence, and so it shall continue to be.

I'm hardly any kind of American foreign policy apologist. Still, if my concern was to interdict any move of China's fleet into the North Pacific, I couldn't find a better place to do it from than Okinawa. If Okinawans really want the Americans out, they should be agitating for Japan to spend money on a much larger military that could replace the American presence with a Japanese one.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by jammies

I wasn't stating anyone's opinion at all, I was stating observed fact. The Okinawans are against having American bases. The bases are there, and will continue to be there. Therefore, their opinion is irrelevant to the continued presence of said bases.

Did you know that the area where the Americans are moving their base also has the local population against their presence? Yet the move is going ahead anyway. The speeches and promises of politicians are theatre designed to disguise the reality that the American military wants and needs a presence on Okinawa, and the Japanese and American governments see the necessity for that presence, and so it shall continue to be.

I'm hardly any kind of American foreign policy apologist. Still, if my concern was to interdict any move of China's fleet into the North Pacific, I couldn't find a better place to do it from than Okinawa. If Okinawans really want the Americans out, they should be agitating for Japan to spend money on a much larger military that could replace the American presence with a Japanese one.

Great piece, but just remember that the base being located is actually the lesser of two evils. In 2006, as part of a broad realignment of U.S. basing in Japan, the United States and Japan agreed to relocate MCAS Futenma to a less-congested area on Okinawa and then redeploy 8,000 marines to U.S. bases in Guam. The arrangement was designed to reduce the local community’s burden and boost economic development. Despite delays, the plan remains in place, especially after clearing hurdles for a new landfill the new base requires.

I don't disagree that Japanese politicians are caving and putting on a show (Governor Nakaima comes to mind), but I don't agree Japan wants that base if their people actually represent the government. The U.S. does, and throws piles of money at the Japanese government to make it happen.

No military presence is Okinawa is going to be fully supported - it's a delicate issues in relations between Tokyo and the U.S., and so any shifting of resources, not matter how strategic they may be, will be contentious at best. However, the new location is designed to benefit a much larger population than Nago. Obviously not the best solution for Okinawans but helps alleviate some of the pressure. The issue now is more environmental concerns, which is understandable.

And I don't think the concerns in the Asian North Pacific is necessarily China - it is North Korea and Russia. The Chinese are much more likely to contest claims in the South China Sea with the Paracel and Spratley Islands, which is already running afoul with Vietnam and Philippines. If the Senkoku Islands dispute gets resolved, I don't see the immediacy in building up forces on Okinawa considering the theatre of operations for contested areas runs to the south and the north of where Okinawa is situated.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Necessary for who? The Chinese? Or the Americans? Read your history. It was captured by Americans to launch bombing raids on mainland Japan, not China.

It's necessary if you want to control the East China Sea. Its location would be ideal for a Chinese base, were they somehow to acquire it, as it would open up the Pacific entirely (and allow them to send balloons with bombs on them against America from a much closer vantage than, say, Shanghai). Not that they are likely to invade at all, but depending only on bases in Japan to defend Japan is not sound strategy. The Pacific's largest American airbase isn't on Okinawa because it's strategically unimportant.