Burke says he would have cut Ray Rice

[Buck Murdock]

Both are despicable, both deserve to be banned from the league. Its amazing how many people can actually rationalize beating your kids with weapons because "it made me who I am today". Crazy stuff.

[Mister Yamoto]

When Patrick Kane and his brother beat up the 60 year old cab driver over $.20 I was disgusted. I was hoping for at least a significant suspension, criminal charges and compensation for the victim.

No suspension. Kane and his lawyers beat the charges. No compensation for the victim, not even a new pair of glasses. And now the whole thing is pretty much forgotten about and he is generally worshipped for being one of the best players in the world (which he clearly is).

A few months after the Kane incident I was horrified to hear that a Flames player did basically the same thing. Good on the Flames for shipping Brett Sutter out days after his incident. I know, everybody makes mistakes. But I don't want people who commit violent crimes on the Flames.

Ferland deserves another chance because after the details came out the charges were thrown out. But he should still be kept on a short leash because of that. One more bar fight type incident with him should be enough to cut him. Whether he is in the wrong or not, high profile professional athletes should not be seen hanging around nightclub parking lots at 2am.

And as far as the wife beating goes, it's not like the Flames players and Flames alumni are completely innocent. Isn't Oliwa still in Polish prison for beating his girlfriend almost to death with a hockey stick?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by shogged

I'd cut Ray Rice, he punched his wife in the face, knocked her out cold.. with video evidence. To me that is a no brainer.

I would not cut Adrien Peterson. I do not agree with the method of discipline he used against his child. However, I also do not believe his intentions were malicious and I cannot see his criminal charges progressing much further. I received the wooden spoon as a child and it left some pretty good welts. Do my parents deserve to lose their jobs? I cannot fault a father for disciplining his child as he was disciplined himself. I may not agree with his methods, but he is better served with education than unemployment. Perhaps a community service penalty in which he helps educate others that societies views on corporal punishment against children have changed. But no, he shouldn't lose his job and his means of supporting his family.

Originally Posted by Azure

Peterson said himself he took a stick and hit his kid multiple times. Malicious intent or not, that is child abuse. The whole 'spanking as discipline' argument is getting blown out of proportion because people think taking a stick and beating your kid is normal 'spanking' behavior. In the province of Manitoba, kids from age 2-12 can be spanked, but it must be done with an open hand. Anything else is against the law. I was spanked too as a child, often with a 'strap'...and I never had any welts of ANY kind. If you're leaving a physical mark, something is wrong. I liked Peterson as a player and person just like everyone else, but taking a stick and beating his kid is to me child abuse and he should be kicked out of the league.

Thanked the first post because I agree with the education comment.

However, I also haven't seen/read exactly what Peterson is alleged to have done. So reading the second post has me questioning this more. There is a point where it is pure abuse, and not about an attempt at disciplining (not condoning disciplining, just saying I understand where people come from).

I just wanted to clarify my thank.

[fatso]

What Ray Rice did was deplorable. But I gotta say, I am really troubled by the notion of an employer dismissing an employee for conduct unrelated to the job when no determination of criminal conduct has been made by a court. I know there are behaviour clauses and the like in these pro sports contracts and perhaps the end of it. I just don't think it's right for an employer to be determining what an employee's appropriate conduct outside of their job should be absent a court finding in support of the employer's position.

[monkeyman]

Given a player of equal status(playing years/age...) as Rice, Is it even possible to cut him in the NHL? Unless there's a morality clause written into the contract, wouldn't the team still be on the hook for the full amount of the contract and or the cap hit? I think they'd handle it differently, but I doubt many teams would out-right cut him.

[CliffFletcher]

The issue is how do we determine that someone is guilty of an act? Historically, we've left it to the courts to decide. In that case, the policy of the sports league is pretty cut and dried: if you're convicted of X, you are suspended for Y (or expelled). The problem is, today we live in an age of the court of public opinion. Videos. Taped phone conservations. Allegations in the media. So how do you determine that somebody did X? What do you accept as evidence? Do you give them any legal appeal?

You can't leave all this stuff up to public opinion, which is fickle, inconsistent, and often capricious.

And that's not even getting into the issue of employers setting behaviour standards that are independent of criminal law. Could a sports league mandate that players cannot watch pornography, drink alcohol, or have sex out of wedlock? Would it have to be explicit about what behaviour can result in suspension, or just react at the discretion of league commissioners to a subjective threshold of public outrage?

In the case of the NFL, they have a problem where many of the players are drafted out of social climates where crime and violence are common. Many of the peers of these players end up in jail, or in toxic family situations. I know teams draft for character, but it's a balancing act. Do you pass on a top prospect because he grew up in a broken family in Compton and ran with gang-bangers in his youth? The NFL would look very, very different if they only drafted squeeky-clean prospects.

[Azure]

The guy was caught on video committing the 'crime.' Pretty black and white to me. But yes, there is a process that the courts would take, and you'd think the NFL would do the same thing.

Either way, this whole incident has brought back the whole 'spanking' argument among many people I know, and its still amazing how so many think they have figured out the single best way to discipline their kids, and how so many thing THEIR kids are perfect.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

If any member of the Flames did what Ray Rice did not only would I be ok with them getting cut, I would expect it. I don't care what player it is, if he's the best player on the team or a 4th line AHL call up, you cut him and don't look back.

I didn't want Bertuzzi on this team, I surely wouldn't any player that abuses women or children.

What if that player was Patrick Roy or Martin Brodeur?

(there are probably more, I just dont remember)

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by driveway

Last year Semyon Varlamov was accused of domestic violence. The charges were ultimately dropped. While he was charged, he continued to play for the Avalanche.

Adrian Peterson is currently only charged with child abuse, yet he cannot play for the Vikings. Peterson has not been convicted of any offence, but he is suspended with pay.

If an NHL player today were accused of domestic violence, I think that the current media climate would require an immediate suspension until the case was resolved, instead of the usual play-until-postseason-court-case arrangement. I think, in the long run, a policy of 'suspend from play until convicted/acquitted' will benefit society and the focus paid to domestic violence and child abuse, but I bet it's going to result in some serious lawsuits.

Adrian Peterson has taken a "leave of absence" which he is still getting still paid for. The team said they would still pay him in full if he left for awhile because Two of their biggest sponsors suspended their agreements with the team until this gets settled.

The team only did it because of financial reasons. Its a joke . They should of done some suspension any way. They did do a one game suspension .

Spanning with an open hand is completely different than whipping.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

If any member of the Flames did what Ray Rice did not only would I be ok with them getting cut, I would expect it. I don't care what player it is, if he's the best player on the team or a 4th line AHL call up, you cut him and don't look back.

I didn't want Bertuzzi on this team, I surely wouldn't any player that abuses women or children.

Yeah, this place went nuts when Marchment was signed. Lots of people said they would not support the team if they were going to employ guys like that... and Marchment was just a scumbag on the ice.

I'm happy with Burke's lack of gray area on topics like this.

[Drury18]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

And as far as the wife beating goes, it's not like the Flames players and Flames alumni are completely innocent. Isn't Oliwa still in Polish prison for beating his girlfriend almost to death with a hockey stick?

No, he's a special advisor for the Canadian International Hockey League.

http://www.saultthisweek.com/2014/09...ohl-favourites

Former National Hockey League enforcer Krzysztof Oliwa, the Poland native who won a Stanley Cup as a member of the New Jersey Devils, has joined the new Ontario-based, junior-level, Canadian International Hockey League as a special adviser to hockey operations. The 41-year-old Oliwa played in 410 NHL regular-season games, racking up 1,447 minutes in penalties along the way.

Prior to that, he was a coach in the same league: http://www.juniorhockey.com/news/new...?news_id=82979

[foshizzle11]

Originally Posted by fatso

What Ray Rice did was deplorable. But I gotta say, I am really troubled by the notion of an employer dismissing an employee for conduct unrelated to the job when no determination of criminal conduct has been made by a court. I know there are behaviour clauses and the like in these pro sports contracts and perhaps the end of it. I just don't think it's right for an employer to be determining what an employee's appropriate conduct outside of their job should be absent a court finding in support of the employer's position.

This might be the case for a person who isn't in the media on a regular basis. This is a PR nightmare to say the least, not only for the Ravens but for the NFL.

Athletes/Coaches/Managers/Owners of professional sport organizations like this one have to behave appropriately. In this case, what is deemed appropriate is defined by the employer.

Is it ok to be a racist if you keep it away from the NBA team that you own? Clearly not. Your behaviour matters when you are a professional athlete and you represent your team as one of the top players (this is arguable, but that seems to be the case).

Whether you committed an illegal act or not, the employer can decide if the employee's behaviour was detrimental to the company. People can argue both sides to this but I think suspending him indefinitely and maybe for good is the way to go.

What he did is inexcusable and disgusting.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Yeah, this place went nuts when Marchment was signed. Lots of people said they would not support the team if they were going to employ guys like that... and Marchment was just a scumbag on the ice.

I'm happy with Burke's lack of gray area on topics like this.

LOL, trust me, Burke would happily employ Marchment as a hockey player. He's the exact type of guy he likes to have. It's the off-ice stuff Burke has a problem with, not the on-ice stuff. He even said as much.

[Phil Russell]

I have zero sympathy/support for wife and child abusers. But, I think these issues are going to plague the NFL for the forseeable future.

The NFL is absolutely facing a PR nightmare, one of their own making but one also rooted in a disturbing football culture that many of their players have been living in for a decade before they even arrive in the NFL. As other posters have stated, many NFL players come from really awful family environments and socioeconomic backgrounds. Add to this that these players have, since at least high-school, been treated as exceptional with zero responsibilities to develop a character, responsibilities or an education beyond the football field, then make these individuals extraordinarily wealthy, and you produce the Rice's, Peterson's, and Incognito's of the world. For a glimpse into this world see the ESPN documentary "Broke." http://espn.go.com/30for30/film?page=broke

I know that there are a lot of exceptions to this pattern and many NFL players do not fit this mold, but too many do. And, I have seen too many of these individuals first hand, having taught at a Big Eight university. Don't be fooled by the NCAA's propoganda on this, these are not "student-athletes." They are just "athletes." Many can hardly read or write, the universities find creative ways to keep their GPAs afloat (the rise of the online course has been very helpful) and they are already living in a world whose societal expectations are very different from the rest of us.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I call BS on Burke's comment. It played well to the crowd, but he'd going to do whatever it takes to win and would be circling the wagons around his franchise player rather than releasing him. I don't believe for a second that Burke would be saying the same things of Mark Giordano cold-cocked his wife. He'd be protecting his captain and saying he would get him the help he needed (standard broiler plate stuff) to rectify issues. There is no way he's cutting lose a top end player because of an off ice issue where there was no conviction on criminal charges. I just think back to his handling of the Bertuzzi-Moore incident and know he wouldn't have the sack to make the move he suggests.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by New Era

I call BS on Burke's comment. It played well to the crowd, but he'd going to do whatever it takes to win and would be circling the wagons around his franchise player rather than releasing him. I don't believe for a second that Burke would be saying the same things of Mark Giordano cold-cocked his wife. He'd be protecting his captain and saying he would get him the help he needed (standard broiler plate stuff) to rectify issues. There is no way he's cutting lose a top end player because of an off ice issue where there was no conviction on criminal charges. I just think back to his handling of the Bertuzzi-Moore incident and know he wouldn't have the sack to make the move he suggests.

If you really believe all this then you don't know the kind of person Burke is (not that I do, but his actions in the community are fairly telling).

You are also, erroneously, equating an on-ice incident with an off-ice incident. You had two willing combatants and a situation that got out of hand. I'm sure if you asked Burke about it now he would have some regrets about what went down, and people can learn from their mistakes too. I don't think for one second Burke would look at Steve Moore and a player's wife in the same light as a willing combatant. Violence has context. I think Burke can understand that basic fact. I don't think anyone would support MMA fighters or Boxers practicing their craft on their wives or significant others.

If you believe that about Burke then obviously you consider him to be one of the worst POSs to walk to earth. He does not give me the same impression.

Also, if Burke says something to the media rarely do I believe he's trying to be PC. He says what he means and is direct and to the point. It's one of the traits I admire about Burke…he doesn't BS.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by New Era

I call BS on Burke's comment. It played well to the crowd, but he'd going to do whatever it takes to win and would be circling the wagons around his franchise player rather than releasing him. I don't believe for a second that Burke would be saying the same things of Mark Giordano cold-cocked his wife. He'd be protecting his captain and saying he would get him the help he needed (standard broiler plate stuff) to rectify issues. There is no way he's cutting lose a top end player because of an off ice issue where there was no conviction on criminal charges. I just think back to his handling of the Bertuzzi-Moore incident and know he wouldn't have the sack to make the move he suggests.

No I don't agree at all. I get the impression Burke is a very intelligent and good person at heart. For what he does for volunteerism in the community, his work with the gay and lesbian rights, he seems very pro human rights and equality to me.

I know he was asked a question and so I don't fault him for answering it, and maybe this is more on the media constantly looking to him for sound bites, but he seems to have his opinion plastered everywhere which over time does get a bit much for me. Even if I agree with him most of the time.

[Antithesis]

There is absolutely, unequivocally, no way I can accept any defense of Adrian Peterson. Additionally, I can not accept any apology from him that falls short of, "I was completely in the wrong. I was abusing my child." What he did is disgusting. Any parent that intentionally harms their children has committed an awful crime. Peterson hit his child so repeatedly and with such force that he left welts on his child's buttocks, back, legs, genitals, and ankles ... and drew blood. That is different from discipline. That is causing significant harm to someone who is dependent upon you.

I applaud the Vikings board for doing what they have done. Even before the Peterson information came out, I was having trouble deciding if I could support the NFL any longer. This certainly hasn't helped the league's case.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

LOL, trust me, Burke would happily employ Marchment as a hockey player. He's the exact type of guy he likes to have. It's the off-ice stuff Burke has a problem with, not the on-ice stuff. He even said as much.

Yeah my post was not very clear without the quote, but I was basically saying the same thing.

If people were spazzing about a hockey player,'s style of play imagine how they would react to a criminal.

Burke would not tolerate a criminal. Therefore we probably would never have to tolerate it for long.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by fatso

What Ray Rice did was deplorable. But I gotta say, I am really troubled by the notion of an employer dismissing an employee for conduct unrelated to the job when no determination of criminal conduct has been made by a court. I know there are behaviour clauses and the like in these pro sports contracts and perhaps the end of it. I just don't think it's right for an employer to be determining what an employee's appropriate conduct outside of their job should be absent a court finding in support of the employer's position.

Take a look at the sponsors bailing on the NFL the teams. The conduct of people like Rice and Peterson is completely related to their job. These people are public figures. Everything they do relates to their profession as athletes, and therefore, their sport and league. The NFL and its teams had no choice but to take action.


Incidentally, it appears that Vikings forum's "permanent shutdown" lasted less than a day...