2014 Top Shelf Prospect Series: Flames Edition

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Two of the first three highlights in the video have Poirier skating from the top of the circle in his own end to the opposition's goal at high speed (such high speed that nobody can keep up with him or effectively check him). Are you suggesting that had he started at the goal line he wouldn't be able to maintain it?

Short bursts don't cover 2/3rds of the ice surface. Saying Poirier is not a speedster is absolutely bizarre.

Unless you are Emile Poirier and are so fast that your start and end location are unknown.

[BruceCody]

Gaudreau-Granlund-Poirier

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Commandant

Oh you mean short burst acceleration? Yeah..... those are great and all.

In most cases, Highlights show you acceleration. They don't show you top end speed... racing down the ice on a backcheck when you are caught, chasing down an icing, getting in on the forecheck. These are Top end speed.

Going on a rush and suddenly changing speeds as you go around the defender? acceleration. Catching a guy flat footed and cutting hard to the net? acceleration. Making a quick move to get away from a defender and open for the pass? acceleration.

You can have one without the other. But the second is more important anyway.


Quick and Fast are two different things in sports... it may not make sense to some, but it is true.


This is also one of many reasons why youtube scouting is B.S..... you can see acceleration, but you rarely if ever get top end speed in highlights. You also are only seeing any players absolute best plays, and not what he looks like over the course of several games.

I get the fast vs quick thing.

And enough people have suggested that he is also fast, so I'll leave that alone.

My question refers to scouting in general. I agree that acceleration is more on display than speed. And acceleration is easier to assess.

So why isn't there more use of RADAR guns to track top-end speed? If you want to compare the speed of two players that are not on the ice at the same time, gun them both and see what you've got. I just don't get why they aren't being used.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BruceCody

Gaudreau-Granlund-Poirier

I like: Gaudreau - Bennett- Poirier

Bennett is faster, grittier, and more talented

What an awesome, blazing fast, and (mostly) nasty line that would be

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I like: Gaudreau - Bennett- Poirier

Bennett is faster, grittier, and more talented

What an awesome, blazing fast, and (mostly) nasty line that would be

I can see it now. Poirier and Bennett take turns relentlessly forechecking and grinding out along the boards for the puck while JG just kind of floats around picking up loose pucks and doing whatever he wants with it.

[mile]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I agree. Although I do see quickness and top-end speed as something very different. Quickness is moving side to side or accelerating and top end is how fast you are going at full stride. Some people have great agility but average top end speed (Cammalleri). Some people have mediocre agility but great north-south speed (Galiardi, Glencross). Some people have both.

Either way I think Poirier is well above average in both of those areas. And yeah, if his stride was more efficient it would make him that much better, but that doesn't mean that he isn't already stupid fast. I agree I couldn't care less how he looks when he skates, as long as he's getting it done.

In addition to what you said, I also see it as:

Quickness: How fast one can win the 10 foot races to the puck
Top End Speed: How fast can one win the 200 foot race across the ice; Do they have breakaway speed?

I think Poirier excels at both.

[Commandant]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I get the fast vs quick thing.

And enough people have suggested that he is also fast, so I'll leave that alone.

My question refers to scouting in general. I agree that acceleration is more on display than speed. And acceleration is easier to assess.

So why isn't there more use of RADAR guns to track top-end speed? If you want to compare the speed of two players that are not on the ice at the same time, gun them both and see what you've got. I just don't get why they aren't being used.

I think because there is so much going on during a game and so much to watch, you'd miss a lot with a radar gun. Its not baseball where you know exactly when a pitch is gonna be thrown and there isn't a lot to see before its hit, you are watching just 60' 6" and all the action is in that one spot.

Its also not nearly as important as how fast a pitcher throws. Top end speed is honestly the least important factor when i look at a guy's skating. I want quickness, agility, and balance (strength) much more than top speed. I want to watch those more closely than the top speed as they are more important overall imo.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Commandant

I have seen him live as well.

With all due respect... you also said and I quote "He is more quick than fast? What the hell does that even mean, they are the same thing man?" which tells me you don't quite understand the concept I'm talking about.

The whole quick/fast thing is typical TSN garbage the talking heads use to fill air time. You're right though, it sounds cool if you don't actually think about it.

[Commandant]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Two of the first three highlights in the video have Poirier skating from the top of the circle in his own end to the opposition's goal at high speed (such high speed that nobody can keep up with him or effectively check him). Are you suggesting that had he started at the goal line he wouldn't be able to maintain it?

Short bursts don't cover 2/3rds of the ice surface. Saying Poirier is not a speedster is absolutely bizarre.

First goal he steals the puck off a defenceman, as he is skating forwards, and the dman is going towards the gatineau net. The D has to turn to chase him, he's got momentum on his side, as he is in motion, and the D has to stop, pivot and start.

2nd goal, he's defintely faster than the guy chasing him (a forward on the backcheck). Who is the guy chasing him? Is he fast? Is he slow? I can't tell, the youtube is kinda grainy. The defenceman he beats with his agility and acceleration.

3rd goal, yes, he beats the forward back checking on him in top speed, again I can't tell who that guy is. As for the D, where are they? did he get them on a line change? or out of position? or flat footed? I don't know. I can't see where the defence start, they are outside the frame.

Again youtube doesn't allow me to assess top end speed properly on these three plays vs watching a few entire games (which can be good not great on video) or watching in person (best method by far).

[Murph]

Originally Posted by Commandant

Oh you mean short burst acceleration? Yeah..... those are great and all.

In most cases, Highlights show you acceleration. They don't show you top end speed... racing down the ice on a backcheck when you are caught, chasing down an icing, getting in on the forecheck. These are Top end speed.

Going on a rush and suddenly changing speeds as you go around the defender? acceleration. Catching a guy flat footed and cutting hard to the net? acceleration. Making a quick move to get away from a defender and open for the pass? acceleration.

You can have one without the other. But the second is more important anyway.


Quick and Fast are two different things in sports... it may not make sense to some, but it is true.


This is also one of many reasons why youtube scouting is B.S..... you can see acceleration, but you rarely if ever get top end speed in highlights. You also are only seeing any players absolute best plays, and not what he looks like over the course of several games.

Ok, stop talking about velocity and acceleration like you invented the concepts. Anyone who passed high school physics understands the difference.

Living in St. John's it's impossible for me to go "scout" Poirer or any other prospect not in the AHL. I have however, watched what games I could find on TV, read what I could find on the internet, and (oh, call me an inferior "scout") watched the YouTube highlights. From that admittedly less than ideal "scouting", I think that he has top end acceleration and above average if not top end speed. We'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

For what it's worth, I think the rest of your evaluation of him is bang on.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Commandant

I think because there is so much going on during a game and so much to watch, you'd miss a lot with a radar gun. Its not baseball where you know exactly when a pitch is gonna be thrown and there isn't a lot to see before its hit, you are watching just 60' 6" and all the action is in that one spot.

Its also not nearly as important as how fast a pitcher throws. Top end speed is honestly the least important factor when i look at a guy's skating. I want quickness, agility, and balance (strength) much more than top speed. I want to watch those more closely than the top speed as they are more important overall imo.

I guess for a scout that is by themselves, I can buy that.

What surprises me is that when there are enough bodies to make it happen, why not have a guy clocking everyone to get books on top end speed?

Anyway, enough of this - I will leave it at that.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Commandant

I have seen him live as well.

With all due respect... you also said and I quote "He is more quick than fast? What the hell does that even mean, they are the same thing man?" which tells me you don't quite understand the concept I'm talking about.

I would think it's up to you to better define what you mean. "Quick" and "fast" are not distinctly different when talking about hockey, at least not for me. If I hear someone using those to describe a player I would think they're interchangeable.

It's the writer's responsibility to ensure that readers understand them, not the other way around.

[FBI]

I think this might become a dead horse issue like Where Are You Chris O Sullivan, where Commandant keeps trying to convince us that Poirier isn't fast but none of us ever buy it

[TheDebaser]

Originally Posted by Commandant

First goal he steals the puck off a defenceman, as he is skating forwards, and the dman is going towards the gatineau net. The D has to turn to chase him, he's got momentum on his side, as he is in motion, and the D has to stop, pivot and start.

2nd goal, he's defintely faster than the guy chasing him (a forward on the backcheck). Who is the guy chasing him? Is he fast? Is he slow? I can't tell, the youtube is kinda grainy. The defenceman he beats with his agility and acceleration.

3rd goal, yes, he beats the forward back checking on him in top speed, again I can't tell who that guy is. As for the D, where are they? did he get them on a line change? or out of position? or flat footed? I don't know. I can't see where the defence start, they are outside the frame.

Again youtube doesn't allow me to assess top end speed properly on these three plays vs watching a few entire games (which can be good not great on video) or watching in person (best method by far).

It's honestly just strange to hear someone say that what has always been the guys best strength is something that he has only recently become average at. It's like if someone said that Gaudreau has only recently acquired average hockey IQ but still needs to take steps forward in that department.

Breaking down a youtube montage that is pretty much 4 minutes of the guy being really ####ing fast and concluding that he might not be fast because the footage is grainy is a little ridiculous don't you think? I respect that you want to defend your opinion, but you just really seem downright off-base here. Poirier has great top-speed, bordering on elite.

I challenge you to find a 1:00+ clip of Poirier where he doesn't score on a breakaway. That's his bread and butter, you won't find one.

[Ashasx]

I appreciate the articles you provide for this forum, Commandant.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Commandant does have a point about 'fast' and 'quick'.

For instance, Lowry said that Kanzig is the fastest guy on the Royals - once he gets going. "Quick" refers to guys that can dart in and out, turn on a dime, etc. In the past draft, Ritchie was a unique prospect because although he was huge and was very physical, he was also very 'quick' for his size - meaning in short little bursts, he could get to the puck before someone else, and he could change his pace/direction fairly well for a big man. I am not sure Gaudreau is that 'fast' in straight line speed - though he does look above average, but it is his little quickness in his agility that makes him so difficult to manage.

I am not sure I quite agree with Commandant's take on Poirier, however. I do think his skating style leaves something to be desired, but it is his exceptional speed - both quickness and top speed - that make him a terror on the PK (also, it was a great opportunity to write about how he has more short-handed goals than power-play goals - so few writers notice that almost absurd fact about Poirier).

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by Commandant

First goal he steals the puck off a defenceman, as he is skating forwards, and the dman is going towards the gatineau net. The D has to turn to chase him, he's got momentum on his side, as he is in motion, and the D has to stop, pivot and start.

This was the goal that I was excluding, although it's still obvious he is fast.

2nd goal, he's defintely faster than the guy chasing him (a forward on the backcheck). Who is the guy chasing him? Is he fast? Is he slow? I can't tell, the youtube is kinda grainy. The defenceman he beats with his agility and acceleration.

Grainy? What? If he is still accelerating after starting in his own zone then his top speed is so fast he is incapable of reaching it within the length of the rink. I'm confused by your difficulty in assessing speed without having another known quantity racing him to compare to. It'd be clear to see that he's fast even if nobody else was on the ice. Sure it makes it easier if you are comparing him to Mason Raymond or something, but watching absolutely blow by major junior players is more reliable than you're making it seem.

3rd goal, yes, he beats the forward back checking on him in top speed, again I can't tell who that guy is. As for the D, where are they? did he get them on a line change? or out of position? or flat footed? I don't know. I can't see where the defence start, they are outside the frame.

Are you making a reasonable doubt argument?!? Claiming that Poirier being fast is only one possible explanation for the fact that he went from a board battle at his own hashmarks to the opponents net completely untouched? Bizarre.

Again youtube doesn't allow me to assess top end speed properly on these three plays vs watching a few entire games (which can be good not great on video) or watching in person (best method by far).

I've seen him play live three times and each of those times he was the fastest skater on the ice (or if he wasn't, I can't recall who might have been). Your assessment: "Poirer has continued to work on his skating stride, and while its still not textbook, it is not a liability either. While not a speedster he’s improved his top end speed to being at an average level and the fact that he can now keep up with with the play really helped him over the last two years. With the work he’s put in and the quick improvements, it wouldn’t be a surprise for him to continue to improve his stride." is way off and makes me wonder about your descriptions of players that I haven't seen.

[Gaskal]

EA Sports to the rescue!

Acceleration - Determines how quickly a player reaches top speed.
Agility - Allows the player to make quicker, sharper turns. A high rating decreases the amount of speed lost while turning.
Speed - Determines a player's top speed. Players cannot maintain top speed throughout a game unless they have a high endurance rating.

[MarkGio]

All in all this thread was spammed with a lot of unnecessary bickering over one sentence. Well I didn't stop reading at that point.

It sounds fairly accurate from what I've seen. Although, I don't think people give our defensive prospects enough credit since they weren't drafted in early rounds. From what I've gathered, defenseman are very hard to predict regardless of draft position.

Eric Roy has the potential to be a high end offensive defenseman. He was initially highly ranked by early reports in his draft year based on pure offensive prowess, but he lacked the defensive mentality to be drafted in the early rounds. He's since fairly decent strides in rounding out his game.

Culkin and Kulak are both improving each year while putting up respectable numbers. One of them could wind up surprising us with their well rounded play. I think Billins spending a year in the KHL could prove to be beneficial like Giordano, and he's very offensively gifted.

While it would be nice to have a first rounder and immediate impact guy like Seth Jones, its fairly common for defenseman to be as successful when drafted later and incubated for several years.

[djsFlames]

"While not a speedster he’s improved his top end speed to being at an average level and the fact that he can now keep up with with the play really helped him over the last two years."

Did I really just read this under Poirier's description?

I'm not sure they were fully aware they were trying to describe Emile Poirier.