I would encourage all of you guys to go and revisit or visit the museum of the regiments.
Its a frightening and scary thought to be a soldier in an assault craft, crawling towards the beach, while machine gun fire rattles off of the bow ramp, and artillary screams over your head and explodes with teeth rattling ferocity.
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The opening scene of Saving Private Ryan illustrates this pretty good from what I would imagine it to be like. Of course, unless someone lived it, I don't think the menacing nature of it can really be understood.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
The opening scene of Saving Private Ryan illustrates this pretty good from what I would imagine it to be like. Of course, unless someone lived it, I don't think the menacing nature of it can really be understood.
The effect of repeated concussive impacts all around you would be mind numbing.
It's one of those things that is largely unfathomable by us civilians, and for most military personnel to some extent. Even if you've been on an active artillery range, it doesn't prepare your mind or body for the real world application of artillery an artillery barrage. I'm going to assume that naval cannons provide the same impact. The psychology of shell shock is no joke.
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The effect of repeated concussive impacts all around you would be mind numbing.
It's one of those things that is largely unfathomable by us civilians, and for most military personnel to some extent. Even if you've been on an active artillery range, it doesn't prepare your mind or body for the real world application of artillery an artillery barrage. I'm going to assume that naval cannons provide the same impact. The psychology of shell shock is no joke.
I sincerely hope that there is never another generation that knows fear and terror on that scale ever again.
The urge to piss yourself and run away is so strong....
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Just came back from my second trip to Normandy about a month ago. Except this time I added stops at Vimy, The Somme and Dieppe.
The preparations going on for the anniversary were incredible. The airborne museum at St Mere Eglise is undergoing a ton of construction, and the tourist trap stuff is out in full force.
I got even more out of my second visit. If you're into museums, the Battle of Normandy museum in Bayeux is excellent. I skipped it last time.
With the influence of Hollywood, most people don't look past the events of DDay. The most ignorant think that after DDay it was smooth sailing all the way to Germany. But the battle of Normandy saw some of the fiercest fighting of the war. Caen was a bitch to take, the bocage, St Lo, hedge row fighting, Falaise pocket and so on. There were some fascinating battles that took place. The patriot in me would be remiss to mention that the Canadians played a huge part in the breakout. Some people don't even know that Canadian paratroopers also landed on DDay.
Also interesting in how Utah beach is kind of the forgotten beach. It was only defended by roughly 75 Germans, and in contrast to everything going wrong on Omaha, almost everything went right on Utah. But also the success of the Utah landings were largely due in part to the work of the paratroopers who landed the night before, there was some fierce fighting that took place as a result of the missed drops. The paratroopers were supposed to drop in, link up and complete their objectives. Instead they scattered everywhere, in some cases landing in the middle of townsquares completely surrounded by Germans with no cover.
My god I could go on forever...
I know how you feel, I'm so glad I went on the trip I did, organized by my Dad's regiment, it was great to visit all these areas and have the guides explain everything that happened in the area, how the battles played out etc. Fascinating. I still can't get over how awed I was by the monument at Vimy Ridge. Just beautiful. We were in Dieppe for the anniversary, I would like to go back when they don't have the whole waterfront taken up by a carnival. Apparently this carnival is held every year over the anniversary of the landing there.
The effect of repeated concussive impacts all around you would be mind numbing.
It's one of those things that is largely unfathomable by us civilians, and for most military personnel to some extent. Even if you've been on an active artillery range, it doesn't prepare your mind or body for the real world application of artillery an artillery barrage. I'm going to assume that naval cannons provide the same impact. The psychology of shell shock is no joke.
Naval bombardment on the German's would have been every bit as intense if not more, There were 5 American Battleships and 3 or four British Battleships shooting shells the size of phone booths down range.
Even when your dug into a bunker, all it takes is one lucky shot right on top of you to end your war.
The fact that these men kept moving forward on the beaches was a testament to some great leadership from the Platoon Leaders and up.
Naval bombardment on the German's would have been every bit as intense if not more, There were 5 American Battleships and 3 or four British Battleships shooting shells the size of phone booths down range.
And yet those bunkers were still pretty much intact. Nazis LOVE their concrete.
I was watching a documentary on TV last night Naze Superstructures or something along that lines. Last night they were examining the "Atlantic Wall" which stretched from the top of Norway to the bottom of France.
The sheer amount of time and resources that went into the wall blows my mind. And only to have it breached within 7 hours or so is insace. Such a waste.
But man were the allies lucky. If it wasn't for the fact that someoen was afraid to wake up Hitler and inform him of the invasion and Rommel was off on holidays, that landing could have gone south in a real hurry.
The sheer amount of time and resources that went into the wall blows my mind. And only to have it breached within 7 hours or so is insace. Such a waste.
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Huge, long, large defensive fortifications breached during WW2 you say......nice work Fritz.
Didn't anyone think to take a drive to Strasburg prior to giving the plans the OK?
And yet those bunkers were still pretty much intact. Nazis LOVE their concrete.
I was watching a documentary on TV last night Naze Superstructures or something along that lines. Last night they were examining the "Atlantic Wall" which stretched from the top of Norway to the bottom of France.
The sheer amount of time and resources that went into the wall blows my mind. And only to have it breached within 7 hours or so is insace. Such a waste.
But man were the allies lucky. If it wasn't for the fact that someoen was afraid to wake up Hitler and inform him of the invasion and Rommel was off on holidays, that landing could have gone south in a real hurry.
The targeting and air strikes by the allies on D-Day were pretty ineffective because the intelligence and targeting packages were bad, the Allies basically churned up a lot of mud behind the bunker defenses while it was more likely that Allied air strikes were killing their own men.
The allies were fortunate with the result on D-Day on all beaches.
I'm convinced that if Rommel would have gotten his armored battalions he might have pushed the allies off of at least a couple of the beaches.
"Our landings in the Cherbourg-Havre area have failed to gain a satisfactory foothold and I have withdrawn the troops. My decision to attack at this time and place was based upon the best information available. The troops, the air and the Navy did all that Bravery and devotion to duty could do. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt it is mine alone."
The allies were fortunate with the result on D-Day on all beaches.
I'm convinced that if Rommel would have gotten his armored battalions he might have pushed the allies off of at least a couple of the beaches.
Totally agree. I know the Allies got some Shermans on shore but there is no way Shermans had the armour or firepower to deal with what could have been waiting for them had the Germans mobilized their armour.
AND they were very lucky with the war of the Pacific. One squadron of American bombers caught the Japanese carrier group with their pants down (munitions lying all over the deck) that resulted in the sinking of all remaining Japanese carriers and basically elminating any chance they had of winning the war.
I'm quite sure that luck played a part in the success of the landings, but you can't discount the efforts the allies went to in preparation for the landings. In spite of everything that went wrong, the attention to detail in an era without computers was incredible.
The plan all along was to invade France, but would the timing and location have been different if the best of the German army wasn't caught up in Russia?
You can't discount the effectiveness of Patton's decoy army.
The plan to land at low tide rather than mid to high tide probably saved hundreds of lives.
The work of the pathfinders goes too often unmentioned.
Its not like German armour was a no show all together. The allies faced plenty in the battle for Normandy.
Had Rommel been present with a few armoured divisions, I doubt they would have added much to the beach fortifications. They would have reinforced the defenders. Maybe the allied aerial and naval bombardment would have softened up the German armour rather than completely miss the beach fortifications.
There were just so many moving parts and details that contributed to the ultimate success or failure of the landings, that I don't like to think the victory of the allies was tipped in their favour because of luck.
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Totally agree. I know the Allies got some Shermans on shore but there is no way Shermans had the armour or firepower to deal with what could have been waiting for them had the Germans mobilized their armour.
the reserve armor units that Rommel should have had on call was the 12th Panzer Division, an extremely heavy tank formation made up of Panzers and the extremely heavy Panzer 4, they also had a brigade of fixed turret tank destroyers on call. Add to it the administrative Artillery batteries and it would have made for a tough day in terms of establishing a beach head.
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Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay
AND they were very lucky with the war of the Pacific. One squadron of American bombers caught the Japanese carrier group with their pants down (munitions lying all over the deck) that resulted in the sinking of all remaining Japanese carriers and basically elminating any chance they had of winning the war.
So. Frickin. Lucky.
Actually Midway is a pretty fascinating battle in terms of the lucky breaks and great decisions that the Americans made that day. A lot of that goes to the change in Commanders. This would have been a probable loss if Bull Halsey hadn't gotten shingles which put a much more analytical commander like Spruance in command
1) The Japanese to that point hadn't lost a battle, they had victory fever, they got lazy 2) The design of the Japanese Carriers was flawed, and the Japanese sailors were poorly trained in terms of damage control and fire fighting. A hit that wouldn't sink an American Carrier because of their fire fighting capabilities and damage control design was devastating to the Japanese. 3) Patrols, this was huge, Spruance and Nimitz created a very comprehensive patrol strategy that used Midway like another Aircraft carrier. They also had more spokes in the wheel so to speak then the Japanese did. For that reason, the Americans' knew the location of the Japanese formations, The Japanese didn't find the American carriers for a long period of time. 4) Indecision by Admiral Nagumo, he was in over his head in this battle, and became indecisive when it came to the use of his planes. He ordered a re-arming of his bombers for a second attack on Midway Island, then when he discovered the location of the American carriers ordered them stripped and re-armed with Torpedo's. This took time that the Japanese didn't have and lead to munitions on the deck and fully fueled fighters in the hanger bays. 5) The attack by Torpedo Squadron 6 which failed miserably. The Devastator Torpedo planes were slow and obsolete, and their escorts had run out of fuel and returned to their carriers. Torpedo Squadron 6 pressed on with their attack to a miserable result, not one torpedo hit a Japanese Carrier, all of the Squadron were shot down and only one pilot survived, however this attack drew the Japanese Air Cover low and out of position, and this allowed three squadrons of Dive Bombers to attack without resistance. Akagi was hit by one bomb but it was a fatal blow because of the deck situation. Soryu and Kaga were hit and set aflame and the Japanese couldn't put the fires out and both boats were destroyed. 6) The American's smarter patroling plan managed to pin down one last carrier in the Hiryu and sank it. the Japanese made a fatal mistake in losing that final carrier because they thought that they had sank two American Carriers in the Yorktown and Enterprise, both ships survived their hits due to their damage control systems and were still operational, so the Hiryu should have retreated and saved itself, instead it basically went up against two American Carriers. 7) The best move of all. though the Japanese had lost four carriers to the American's one, they still have a formidable fleet and the American's were still short carriers with nothing between Hawaii and Midway outside of their three carriers. The Japanese were also supreme night fighters, and the American's didn't have night capable aircraft. Spruance looked at his wins that day and made the decision to disengage. Halsey who was a great Admiral but hyper aggressive might have pushed and lost his carriers and any advantage that was gained during Midway.
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I'm quite sure that luck played a part in the success of the landings, but you can't discount the efforts the allies went to in preparation for the landings. In spite of everything that went wrong, the attention to detail in an era without computers was incredible.
Absolutley agree. The ingenuity and creativness of the allies was impressive.
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The plan all along was to invade France, but would the timing and location have been different if the best of the German army wasn't caught up in Russia?
You would have to think so. Hitler bit off more than he could chew opening a 2nd front. If he has stuck with Europe, I'm sure the Atlantic wall would have been finished and way more resources would have been available to defend it.
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Had Rommel been present with a few armoured divisions, I doubt they would have added much to the beach fortifications. They would have reinforced the defenders. Maybe the allied aerial and naval bombardment would have softened up the German armour rather than completely miss the beach fortifications.
The armour divisions were will back of the Wall, way outside of the range of naval guns. They were meant to "plug any holes" that formed in the defensive line. And they had TONS of them. Had they been moved into position, I don't think the invasion would have worked.
I'm quite sure that luck played a part in the success of the landings, but you can't discount the efforts the allies went to in preparation for the landings. In spite of everything that went wrong, the attention to detail in an era without computers was incredible.
The plan all along was to invade France, but would the timing and location have been different if the best of the German army wasn't caught up in Russia?
You can't discount the effectiveness of Patton's decoy army.
The plan to land at low tide rather than mid to high tide probably saved hundreds of lives.
The work of the pathfinders goes too often unmentioned.
Its not like German armour was a no show all together. The allies faced plenty in the battle for Normandy.
Had Rommel been present with a few armoured divisions, I doubt they would have added much to the beach fortifications. They would have reinforced the defenders. Maybe the allied aerial and naval bombardment would have softened up the German armour rather than completely miss the beach fortifications.
There were just so many moving parts and details that contributed to the ultimate success or failure of the landings, that I don't like to think the victory of the allies was tipped in their favour because of luck.
I would agree, there were tons of moving parts, but Rommel and the German's had lost any kind of mobility ability that would have prevented the allies from unloading their heavier weapons.
It wasn't as much luck as fortune.
The allies had a supreme battle plan and later studies revealed that German Intelligence which in moves were portrayed as evil super spies were actually closer to a Laurel and Hardy comedy reel. Ultimately failed the Germans.
