Stab someone 11 times, self defence: Welcome to Canada

[Zevo]

According to this report, the Rule of Law Index, a global comparison of 97 national legal systems from 2012, Canada finishes ahead of the US in every single statistical catagory, I do believe. The quick reference charts start on page 163 if anyone(Puckluck) wants to check for themselves.

http://worldjusticeproject.org/publi...12-2013-report

[Barbecue]

A question for the "if i get stabbed, i should stab back" crowd...

how do we know the girlfriend intended to stab?

When he offered her the knife to commit suicide, he handed the knife handle first. Which would mean the blade was pointed back to himself when he had the knife in his hands.

Being upset with everything, she rejects the knife and pushes the offered knife away. Without even thinking of the direction of the push because maybe she was hysterical with suicidal thoughts, that push happen to caused the knife to go into his stomach.

so with all that said... is retaliating with 11 stabbings to the back and neck not murder?

[Temporary_User]

I'm actually curious what PuckLuck #2 has against the Canadian system. I've seen him bring it up a few times now in many threads but have never questioned it. Seems like some personal experience there..

[NuclearPizzaMan]

Originally Posted by Barbecue

A question for the "if i get stabbed, i should stab back" crowd...

how do we know the girlfriend intended to stab?

When he offered her the knife to commit suicide, he handed the knife handle first. Which would mean the blade was pointed back to himself when he had the knife in his hands.

Being upset with everything, she rejects the knife and pushes the offered knife away. Without even thinking of the direction of the push because maybe she was hysterical with suicidal thoughts, that push happen to caused the knife to go into his stomach.

so with all that said... is retaliating with 11 stabbings to the back and neck not murder?

Don't know, but chances are I'm not going to be stopping to analyze their motives. A mixture of panic, rage, and adrenaline will dictate my actions.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

I'm actually curious what PuckLuck #2 has against the Canadian system. I've seen him bring it up a few times now in many threads but have never questioned it. Seems like some personal experience there..

So the law was too lenient on me? That makes sense...

[Makarov]

The thread title seems rather misleading. It seems to me that the jury clearly rejected the accused's self defense argument because they convicted him.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Makarov

The thread title seems rather misleading. It seems to me that the jury clearly rejected the accused's self defense argument because they convicted him.

Of a lesser charge. Isn't self defense why they called it manslaughter instead of murder? It wasn't a classic self defense case but it played a part in him getting off the more serious charge.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

I'm actually curious what PuckLuck #2 has against the Canadian system. I've seen him bring it up a few times now in many threads but have never questioned it. Seems like some personal experience there..

Because some people still maintain the primitive notion that justice = vengeance.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Barbecue

so with all that said... is retaliating with 11 stabbings to the back and neck not murder?

It's manslaughter... had he retaliated with significantly less he might have just been found not guilty rather then the conviction on the lesser charge. The initial stab, regardless of the intentions, is a highly important consideration.

Originally Posted by Makarov

The thread title seems rather misleading. It seems to me that the jury clearly rejected the accused's self defense argument because they convicted him.

Kind of, based on the lesser charge I more get the impression that they accepted that it was a case of self-defense but ultimately determined that the amount of force used was unreasonable. You're allowed to use force to defend yourself but only to a reasonable degree.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Again I don't know all the facts, I don't know what was entered into evidence, nor have I heard any testimony.

From the article I linked above, http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/02/19...d-her-to-death:

He said the suicide notes were part of a “game” Enrique was playing with his emotions and he wrote them to let her know she was mistreating him.

Simenik suggested Pelaez — who’s charged with second-degree murder — was angry at Enrique, who was planning on returning to their native Philippines the next day after being in Canada less than a month, because she was swearing at him and slapping him.

There the Calgary Sun paints a picture that he was being abused. Was this true? I have no idea. But if it was, then Battered Wife Syndrome could have been used as a defense. It's not just women that are abused in relationships.

However, as Makarov posted above, self-defense was rejected as he was accused of manslaughter. This means that the jury found that he was responsible for the death, but did not intend to kill Pelaez.

Self-defense doesn't "reduce" the charge.

For reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_...)#Manslaughter :

First Degree Murder:

• was planned and deliberate
• was contracted
• was committed against an identified peace officer
• while committing or attempting to commit the hijacking of an aircraft
• while committing or attempting to commit sexual assault
• while committing or attempting to commit sexual assault with a weapon
• while committing or attempting to commit aggravated sexual assault
• while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement
• during a hostage taking
• while committing criminal harassment
• was committed during terrorist activity
• while using explosives in association with a criminal organization
• while committing intimidation.

Second Degree Murder:

• murder that isn't first degree murder
• aka, intended to kill but not under any of the itemized scenarios listed above

Manslaughter:

• an act that kills another person that isn't first or second degree murder

In a nutshell, manslaughter means that someone killed another without the intention to do so.


Now maybe he wanted her dead and his defense did a good job of convincing the jury that it was manslaughter, I don't know. We don't have the facts.

Maybe he deserves to rot in jail, maybe he's being screwed by the system. Without knowing the facts presented at trial, we can't say.

[Coach]

When does intention take affect? If I read it right and the woman seems to have pushed the knife into him by accident, if he was to die in that scenario it would be manslaughter. But he intentionally stabbed her back (ok self defense) 11 times (I think you got her there guy). At what point during those 10 extra stabs did he intend to kill her? He must have. How can you stab someone 11 times and NOT intend to kill them?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by MattyC

When does intention take affect? If I read it right and the woman seems to have pushed the knife into him by accident, if he was to die in that scenario it would be manslaughter. But he intentionally stabbed her back (ok self defense) 11 times (I think you got her there guy). At what point during those 10 extra stabs did he intend to kill her? He must have. How can you stab someone 11 times and NOT intend to kill them?

I'm no defense lawyer, but I think you could argue that once she stabbed him he went into full fight or flight mode and probably really wasn't thinking about what he was doing. I'm also just speculating but there seemed to be enough there to convince the jury that this wasn't intentional.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

So the law was too lenient on me? That makes sense...

Holy smokes, do you just have a problem with reading comprehension? First, obviously the way you frame this story, but second, the more obvious meaning of his comment was that maybe you had some personal experience in where you or someone close to you was wronged and you felt they weren't punished appropriately for their crimes.

Like whoa man, slow down and read. You won't be so outraged all the time.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Holy smokes, do you just have a problem with reading comprehension? First, obviously the way you frame this story, but second, the more obvious meaning of his comment was that maybe you had some personal experience in where you or someone close to you was wronged and you felt they weren't punished appropriately for their crimes.

Like whoa man, slow down and read. You won't be so outraged all the time.

But this is the reason as to why he's so fun to antagonize. His reactions are quite entertaining!

[Rifleman]

Stabbed 11 times does seem excessive. The severed finger probably means he was slashing with the knife at the end. Seems puckluck thinks he should get 25 years for what would be a 2nd degree murder charge, and one that would be tough to get a conviction on in court.

Then you have to ask, if he only stabbed her 2 times, should he get 25 years? What if he stabbed her 5 or 7 times? At what point does it become excessive?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Kind of, based on the lesser charge I more get the impression that they accepted that it was a case of self-defense but ultimately determined that the amount of force used was unreasonable. You're allowed to use force to defend yourself but only to a reasonable degree.

That isn't how the defense of self-defense works. If the trier of fact accepts that the defense of self-defense has raised a reasonable doubt, then there is no culpable homicide and the accused cannot be guilty of manslaughter.

In this case, it sounds possible (even likely) that the jury accepted that the accused was provoked and therefore lacked the requisite intent for murder. They may have therefore convicted him of the lesser included offence of manslaughter.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by MattyC

When does intention take affect? If I read it right and the woman seems to have pushed the knife into him by accident, if he was to die in that scenario it would be manslaughter.

Actually, in these circumstances, it would depend. If the woman was brandishing the knife was an unlawful act (or was part of an unlawful act) [for example, she was threatening him with it], then she would likely be guilty of manslaughter. If, on the other hand, she was just holding the knife to cut carrots in the kitchen, then she wouldn't be guilty of any criminal offence at all.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Actually, in these circumstances, it would depend. If the woman was brandishing the knife was an unlawful act (or was part of an unlawful act) [for example, she was threatening him with it], then she would likely be guilty of manslaughter. If, on the other hand, she was just holding the knife to cut carrots in the kitchen, then she wouldn't be guilty of any criminal offence at all.

What I meant, it sounds like the he was holding the knife to give the handle to her and then she pushed him away, stabbing him in the process. If he died that seems like manslaughter.

But then to turn around and stab her 11 times seems to go beyond self-defense, no? Obviously I have no idea what the details are, it just seems like somewhere between the 2nd and 11th stab, self defense turns to intended murder.

[Wormius]

^^ Isn't it because he hadn't planned on killing her, that it is just a manslaughter charge.

I guess, similar in nature to a "crime of passion" would be considered? Say you saw adult punch your child in the face, you'd possibly go berserk and maybe, unintentionally kill that person.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Holy smokes, do you just have a problem with reading comprehension? First, obviously the way you frame this story, but second, the more obvious meaning of his comment was that maybe you had some personal experience in where you or someone close to you was wronged and you felt they weren't punished appropriately for their crimes.

Like whoa man, slow down and read. You won't be so outraged all the time.

This. I don't think I have ever observed anybody so consistently angry on these boards.