Middle East Expat Experiences?

[Wastedyouth]

If you want to work or visit and excellent place in the middle east, head to Kurdistan. The capital city (Hawler in Kurdish) Erbil is extremely safe and has some fun little pubs and bars to go to. The Oil and Gas industry there is definitely blowing up (figuratively of course).

I am currently working for a couple companies, Expro and Oryx, european based companies. both are pretty decent companies with some really good people working for them.

Erbil has many great options (expensive though) for living. The city has many different tiny little sections called cities in the city itself. My personal faves at the moment are Christian City (bars galore), Capital City (housing). The Kurdish people are some of the most open minded and friendly to expat Muslims that i have ever met. Most are very appreciative of the work and money that Expats bring into their communities.

The city has so much construction going on at the moment. There are some very nice apartments and condo buildings going up and there is entertainment and malls getting put up everywhere.


PS. stay away from Iraq if you can, the place is a hell hole for contractors. The security is claustrophobia inducing.

[bizkitgto]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

PS. stay away from Iraq if you can, the place is a hell hole for contractors. The security is claustrophobia inducing.

Isn't Erbil part of Iraq? I think Basra is seeing a lot of oil action as well, security in Erbil is better than Basra?

[JD]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

I qualified it saying depending on where you are staying, also, if you are a woman, then no place there offers a "western lifestyle" in my opinion. Certainly not Doha.

The UAE certainly does offer that. And I know women that have worked in the KSA and loved it. They tended to be open-minded with "live and let live" attitudes, so I can see how that wouldn't work for everyone, maybe even most of everyone.

Originally Posted by TSXCman

do these companies ever take younger engineers? I don't have my P Eng yet but my interest in working in the middle east or south america is growing.

They will, but you come with the disadvantage of being more expensive than a regional. You probably won't get a job with one of the big national producers because they like to hire local young engineers (Saudization and Emiratization are the terms I've heard in ARAMCO and ADCO), but you may catch on with a service provider quite easily. The big multinational ones (Schlum, Halliburton, Baker, Weatherford, etc) offer good training programs and are always looking for people, but the downside is they'll likely station you in Nigeria or Pakistan before you get to Abu Dhabi or Doha.

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

If you want to work or visit and excellent place in the middle east, head to Kurdistan. The capital city (Hawler in Kurdish) Erbil is extremely safe and has some fun little pubs and bars to go to. The Oil and Gas industry there is definitely blowing up (figuratively of course).

I am currently working for a couple companies, Expro and Oryx, european based companies. both are pretty decent companies with some really good people working for them.

Erbil has many great options (expensive though) for living. The city has many different tiny little sections called cities in the city itself. My personal faves at the moment are Christian City (bars galore), Capital City (housing). The Kurdish people are some of the most open minded and friendly to expat Muslims that i have ever met. Most are very appreciative of the work and money that Expats bring into their communities.

The city has so much construction going on at the moment. There are some very nice apartments and condo buildings going up and there is entertainment and malls getting put up everywhere.

PS. stay away from Iraq if you can, the place is a hell hole for contractors. The security is claustrophobia inducing.

This is a weird post - some contradictory things from my experiences! I know people living in Erbil and unless things have changed quickly, the only pubs I know of are the Teacher's Club and the German Pub. Perhaps we need to explore more... Erbil might be in Kurdistan, but it is most certainly still Iraq! Safer than Basra, yes, but the 2nd last time I was there, a section of the city was shut down from a car-bombing. The city is very much up-and-coming, though, and the skyline resembles Dubai 15 years ago. Definitely, Kurds are good people, but the rank and file are not well educated and working with them can be frustrating. I wouldn't steer someone away from Erbil, though. It is certainly a good option. I know many people who have taken permanent spots and some who are on rotation there, and 75% are either okay with it or really like it and 25% can't stand it and think it's hell on earth. I really believe that's more due to attitude than surroundings.

With regards to the Gulf countries...

The UAE and KSA are pretty much on opposite ends of the spectrum, with Bahrain, Kuwait, and Qatar being somewhere in the middle with varying degrees of "westernization".

With KSA, yes, drinking is illegal, but from what I know, most of the expat community spends their off hours visiting their neighbours' villas to try their moonshine. Drinking is very much a part of the lifestyle there, even if it is more underground. Obviously you wouldn't want to get caught, but I think the Saudis understand this is happening and would rather pretend that it isn't.

I haven't been to the compounds there, but it sounds like they're spectacular. I've heard the lifestyle in the Dharhan compound is lax and very westernized. There are smaller ones around and not all of them will be good. Do your research before you make a move.

And of course in Saudi there is the Bahrain weekend. I've only had fleeting moments there, but it's a beautiful place (comparatively?) and, I'm sure, lots of fun. Traffic across the causeway can be a nightmare though.

I haven't spent time in Qatar, but everything I've heard mimics what people have posted here. They are more conservative than the UAE and their "westernization" seems more like lipservice than an actual attempt to offer that lifestyle. Having a Chili's (you can't have a beer in) and Tim Hortons doesn't make it so. I'm sure things will change over the coming years as they prepare to host the World Cup.

I've never been to Kuwait and I don't even know anyone who's been.

In the UAE, drinking is not only legal, but widespread, haha. The western expat community is huge, especially in Dubai. My life in Abu Dhabi is not that different from living in Calgary. I rent my own flat, I have my own car, I golf, play hockey (well, plan to), and go out to the bars and clubs on weekends. Instead of Banff weekends, I have Dubai weekends.

As for the companies themselves, the big multinational service companies are a good quick way in. But as I said, if you don't have experience, you probably can't expect to get the location you want. You can target the national oil companies.

ARAMCO is obviously the biggest one. It's a behemoth and I've had frustrations working with them. I can imagine those same frustrations occur in-house as well.

In the UAE, the oil business is situated in Abu Dhabi, so unless you work for a service company based in Dubai, you probably shouldn't expect to live there. I know a smattering of companies that operate in other countries (like Iraq) have their head offices based in Dubai, so that is a possibility.

You mentioned ADNOC - this is only the parent company for the oil and gas industry in Abu Dhabi. They are known because they are the marketing and distributing company, like the Petro Canada to Suncor. The exploration and production companies are ADCO (land-based), ADMA (offshore), ZADCO (offshore unconventional), and GASCO (gas and processing). ADCO is the oldest and most conservative. I deal with them the most, and they can be frustrating in the same way as ARAMCO. The others are relatively newer and are open to fresh perspectives.

Anyway, that was a lot of rambling and it went in a few different directions... if you want more detail on some of those aspects or different ones altogether, mention it! As I said earlier, you can enjoy any of these experiences if you take the right attitude into it. I have honestly had a great time to get to know the region and know its people. The UAE is full of people from every country in the region so I feel like I've had a chance to get to know someone from each.

[bizkitgto]

Originally Posted by JD

ARAMCO is obviously the biggest one. It's a behemoth and I've had frustrations working with them. I can imagine those same frustrations occur in-house as well.

Wow, awesome post. Very detailed. When you said you had frustrations with Aramco, was it mainly bureacracy?

When you started looking at jobs in the gulf did you just start applying on company's websites or did you look at using a recruiter instead?

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Pretty much the same sentiment I've heard from my friend's wife. She said, if you're a western woman not wearing a veil, most men over there think of you as a whore and either look at you with disgust, or with lust or both.

Those guys would explode if they ever went to vegas......

[JD]

Originally Posted by bizkitgto

Wow, awesome post. Very detailed. When you said you had frustrations with Aramco, was it mainly bureacracy?

Some of it is that. The other thing that exists within ADCO as well is that people are not that knowledgeable. They are trained to do jobs and perform tasks, but they don't think outside the box well. If you do not follow their procedures to a T, even if they don't make sense, you will not get anywhere. So hoop-jumping becomes an important skill. Then you have some people (usually western expats) who are actually knowledgeable but have terrible attitudes and act like they're gods among men. These types have tremendous egos and tend to rule by tyranny more than anything. They're rare, but you'll know when you encounter one!

When you started looking at jobs in the gulf did you just start applying on company's websites or did you look at using a recruiter instead?

The company I worked for in Calgary was starting up a couple Middle Eastern operations and I threw my name in to be one of the engineers over here. I worked with them on month-in, month-out rotation for a couple years in Abu Dhabi. I then returned to live in Calgary for just under two years, working a couple different jobs. Meanwhile, the Abu Dhabi operation changed ownership and needed an engineer. They contacted me, so I agreed to come back on a permanent basis.

I know the ADNOC companies advertise openings on their website and that ARAMCO likes to hold job fairs in various places in North America, including Calgary. If you want to work for those places, that's a good place to start. If you're willing to permanently relocate, you'll have better luck than looking for some type of rotational position. Those are rare for office-type jobs. Usually they're reserved for positions that are operationally-critical and require the employee to work every day and be available around the clock.

[bizkitgto]

Originally Posted by JD

I haven't spent time in Qatar, but everything I've heard mimics what people have posted here. They are more conservative than the UAE and their "westernization" seems more like lipservice than an actual attempt to offer that lifestyle. Having a Chili's (you can't have a beer in) and Tim Hortons doesn't make it so. I'm sure things will change over the coming years as they prepare to host the World Cup.

Do you think Qatar is the up and coming place to be (similar to UAE in the 80's)? They have so many mega-project's on the go that there is now more expats there than nationals, that's got to have a major impact on the culture. I wonder how fast the 'westernization' will happen now that the world cup is approaching.

[HockeyIlliterate]

Originally Posted by _Q_

It's too bad all the interesting Arab countries (Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt) have virtually no oil and gas.

Uh, what?

There is at least one large oil and gas company (that has a sizeable office in Calgary) that has significant operations in Egypt.

Egypt has a lot of oil (and some gas).

[JD]

Originally Posted by bizkitgto

Do you think Qatar is the up and coming place to be (similar to UAE in the 80's)? They have so many mega-project's on the go that there is now more expats there than nationals, that's got to have a major impact on the culture. I wonder how fast the 'westernization' will happen now that the world cup is approaching.

I don't know, really, but I don't think Qatar is a parallel to the UAE like that. They are already pretty well established. Doha is already there with massive skyscrapers and their collection of western restaurants and the like. I think if Qatar wanted to be like the UAE, they would already be like the UAE. And really, there's not THAT much difference between them.

But the World Cup definitely is an x-factor.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by bizkitgto

Isn't Erbil part of Iraq? I think Basra is seeing a lot of oil action as well, security in Erbil is better than Basra?

It is still part of Iraq. But it is part of the KRG. Which has its own governing body, laws and militia.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by JD

The UAE certainly does offer that. And I know women that have worked in the KSA and loved it. They tended to be open-minded with "live and let live" attitudes, so I can see how that wouldn't work for everyone, maybe even most of everyone.


They will, but you come with the disadvantage of being more expensive than a regional. You probably won't get a job with one of the big national producers because they like to hire local young engineers (Saudization and Emiratization are the terms I've heard in ARAMCO and ADCO), but you may catch on with a service provider quite easily. The big multinational ones (Schlum, Halliburton, Baker, Weatherford, etc) offer good training programs and are always looking for people, but the downside is they'll likely station you in Nigeria or Pakistan before you get to Abu Dhabi or Doha.


This is a weird post - some contradictory things from my experiences! I know people living in Erbil and unless things have changed quickly, the only pubs I know of are the Teacher's Club and the German Pub. Perhaps we need to explore more... Erbil might be in Kurdistan, but it is most certainly still Iraq! Safer than Basra, yes, but the 2nd last time I was there, a section of the city was shut down from a car-bombing. The city is very much up-and-coming, though, and the skyline resembles Dubai 15 years ago. Definitely, Kurds are good people, but the rank and file are not well educated and working with them can be frustrating. I wouldn't steer someone away from Erbil, though. It is certainly a good option. I know many people who have taken permanent spots and some who are on rotation there, and 75% are either okay with it or really like it and 25% can't stand it and think it's hell on earth. I really believe that's more due to attitude than surroundings.

With regards to the Gulf countries...

You definitely missed out. There is the Sky Bar, which you need to actually make a reservation to if you want to go because it is so popular.

Aura Club, which is a newer bar in the Sipan. Tonnes of little pubs in Ainkawa. 5 restaurant/lounges in the Divan hotel. A number lounges and restaurants that serve alchohol and western fare in Dream City.

Erbil probably has changed since you were last there. It changed since I was here 10 months ago, quite noticeably.

[JD]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

You definitely missed out. There is the Sky Bar, which you need to actually make a reservation to if you want to go because it is so popular.

Aura Club, which is a newer bar in the Sipan. Tonnes of little pubs in Ainkawa. 5 restaurant/lounges in the Divan hotel. A number lounges and restaurants that serve alchohol and western fare in Dream City.

Erbil probably has changed since you were last there. It changed since I was here 10 months ago, quite noticeably.

Believe it or not, I've been thinking of flying up there for a weekend for a social visit so these may be good suggestions. I was last there in January.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by JD

Believe it or not, I've been thinking of flying up there for a weekend for a social visit so these may be good suggestions. I was last there in January.

I was gonna warn you of the heat coming up here in the next month or so, but I see you are in Abu Dhabi. So you know all about it.

I havent been here during Ramadan, so I am unsure how it affects the local businesses, but I would imagine in Christian village it probably doesnt affect them at all.

[bizkitgto]

Originally Posted by JD

With KSA, yes, drinking is illegal, but from what I know, most of the expat community spends their off hours visiting their neighbours' villas to try their moonshine. Drinking is very much a part of the lifestyle there, even if it is more underground. Obviously you wouldn't want to get caught, but I think the Saudis understand this is happening and would rather pretend that it isn't.

I haven't been to the compounds there, but it sounds like they're spectacular. I've heard the lifestyle in the Dharhan compound is lax and very westernized. There are smaller ones around and not all of them will be good. Do your research before you make a move.

And of course in Saudi there is the Bahrain weekend. I've only had fleeting moments there, but it's a beautiful place (comparatively?) and, I'm sure, lots of fun. Traffic across the causeway can be a nightmare though.

How is the social life working for Aramco? I know life is restricted and all but living on a compound sounds pretty sweet if it's all expenses paid by Aramco. Do you have any idea how people enjoy living there - would you consider living in KSA as an Aramcon?

[JD]

Originally Posted by bizkitgto

How is the social life working for Aramco? I know life is restricted and all but living on a compound sounds pretty sweet if it's all expenses paid by Aramco. Do you have any idea how people enjoy living there - would you consider living in KSA as an Aramcon?

I've never done it so I can't say. It's one of those things that people either love or hate I guess. As I mentioned, the social life sounds good. There's a lot of recreation on the compound, beaches, golf course, tennis, soccer, and as I mentioned, you have the underground boozing too.

But to answer the last question, no way, I wouldn't give up living in the UAE for Saudi. No way, no how. You have everything here that they have on those compounds in Dammam/Khobar, plus you can actually go out to a pub, explore the cities, meet girls, go on a weekend camping trip in the desert, etc. The freedoms offered in the UAE far surpass anything Aramco can throw money at. Companies pay for your accommodation in the UAE too, so even that part is equivalent. The biggest advantage I think is that Aramco pays more and you'll spend less in the KSA. My expenses are pretty low at this point in my life, but I'm not saving as much as I thought I would because my social life costs more!

[bizkitgto]

Originally Posted by JD

I've never done it so I can't say. It's one of those things that people either love or hate I guess. As I mentioned, the social life sounds good. There's a lot of recreation on the compound, beaches, golf course, tennis, soccer, and as I mentioned, you have the underground boozing too.

But to answer the last question, no way, I wouldn't give up living in the UAE for Saudi. No way, no how. You have everything here that they have on those compounds in Dammam/Khobar, plus you can actually go out to a pub, explore the cities, meet girls, go on a weekend camping trip in the desert, etc. The freedoms offered in the UAE far surpass anything Aramco can throw money at. Companies pay for your accommodation in the UAE too, so even that part is equivalent. The biggest advantage I think is that Aramco pays more and you'll spend less in the KSA. My expenses are pretty low at this point in my life, but I'm not saving as much as I thought I would because my social life costs more!

Awesome feedback, thanks. I have been looking into moving overseas, there's a lot of work in Qatar (Rasgas/QatarGas etc) as well as in the KSA (many projects/operations). KSA/Aramco has what appears to be the best benefits/salaries etc but you pay the price in social life. It's a tough call.