It would have been interesting if the Flames had renewed Craig Button's contract in 2003 and kept him in place to help Darryl take care of the details, as he had been doing since hiring DS in December 2002. The result would have been an arrangement similar to what Colorado has with Sherman and Roy (though obviously without the Sakic role). Button showed early on a willingness to work with and cater to his coach's suggestions, e.g. the Donovan and Ference trades. No reason to believe he wouldn't have agreed to a new arrangement with Darryl as a kind of co-GM, if it meant he could keep his job.
We'll never know, but I think Button and Darryl might've complemented each other well for a while. Neither were great GMs on their own, clearly. Each had their own strengths--Button had a reasonably good eye for young talent, even if it showed through trades and free agent signings more than at the draft table. Darryl lacked any kind of long term vision and, though he struck gold early, really hit the skids the more consolidated power. It would have been worth trying if only because it would have kept DS behind the bench indefinitely.
I don't believe that is true if you go back to his interviews in 2005
I think the same excuse for Feaster applies to Darryl (i.e. ownership meddling, win now mode, win a cup for Iggy) as everything from 2004-2006 was about getting younger, stocking the pipeline, wants 2 prospects coming through the pipeline into the lineup every year, stocking the pipeline at varies roles, etc. That all went to crap in about 2007 and you didn't hear about it again.
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I don't believe that is true if you go back to his interviews in 2005
I think the same excuse for Feaster applies to Darryl (i.e. ownership meddling, win now mode, win a cup for Iggy) as everything from 2004-2006 was about getting younger, stocking the pipeline, wants 2 prospects coming through the pipeline into the lineup every year, stocking the pipeline at varies roles, etc. That all went to crap in about 2007 and you didn't hear about it again.
I'd argue that under Darryl, the edict to win-now came from Darryl. I'm not convinced he was taking orders from anyone other than himself. Everything the organization did in response to ouster--from addressing his 'resignation' to the hires they made in his wake--suggests that they wanted to correct the mistake of giving one guy too much power. So I think the argument that he was hamstrung by ownership demands or meddling holds far less water with Darryl than with Feaster.
But even if we accept that he was working within such parameters, there's more to establishing a long term vision than player personnel moves. The way you achieve long term success is by setting up a strong, stable organizational framework in which you get the best people in place for any given role, and let them do their jobs. He didn't do that. He talked a lot about it, but his actions were often completely contradictory to his words. When he was first given the GM role, all the talk was that he'd hire an experienced assistant. A few months into the job, he decided he didn't need one. So, until the last 6 months, Hockey Operations under Darryl was Darryl and two administrative guys, Holditch and Burke. There's also substantial evidence that the scouting department was a bit of a mess under Darryl--this was one of the very first areas Feaster addressed after getting the gig permanently.
All of this is to say, the strictness of the parameters within which he was asked to work are largely irrelevant to the fact that Darryl didn't establish an organizational framework for longterm success.
I think the same excuse for Feaster applies to Darryl (i.e. ownership meddling, win now mode, win a cup for Iggy) as everything from 2004-2006 was about getting younger, stocking the pipeline, wants 2 prospects coming through the pipeline into the lineup every year, stocking the pipeline at varies roles, etc. That all went to crap in about 2007 and you didn't hear about it again.
Makes you wonder how Todd Button stayed employed.
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Originally Posted by JobHopper
The thing is, my posts, thoughts and insights may be my opinions but they're also quite factual.
I'd argue that under Darryl, the edict to win-now came from Darryl. I'm not convinced he was taking orders from anyone other than himself. Everything the organization did in response to ouster--from addressing his 'resignation' to the hires they made in his wake--suggests that they wanted to correct the mistake of giving one guy too much power. So I think the argument that he was hamstrung by ownership demands or meddling holds far less water with Darryl than with Feaster.
I will agree that Darryl's 48 hour of crazy is the reason you started to see lots of oversight.
As for the scouting department, while Feaster did add to it, it had been improving since ~2006. I believe it was 2005 or 2006 that we started to invest into European scouting; until then, I think we had 2 part time guys in Europe and 6-7 CHL scouts and 1 guy in the NCAA? During Darryl's tenure, he greatly expanded into Europe. Feaster added to that program. You saw a lot of the results from that in future years:
2007: Backlund and Aulie
2008: Brodie and Bouma
2009: Erixon (traded) and Ortio
2010: TBD (Reinhart, Ferland, Ramage, Holland)
The draft success in 2011 and past wasn't Feaster logging millions of air miles scouting or doubling his coaching staff, its dividends being paid for by years of the organization improving and growing. You really think within 5 months, Feaster re-vamped the entire scouting staff to get Sven, Granlund, Wotherspoon and Gaudreau? Not a chance. I will agree he #### the bed so hard they had to throw out the mattress for 2005-06, and those 2 years are being felt harder than most cause players in that draft correlate to the 27-29 range, but we are only now seeing the dividends payed from the 2007-08 range as we are nearing 5-6 years out and players from the prime there - and we saw it last year, as our best players were Brodie, Backlund, Giordano (3 Darryl picks) along with Ramo (a Feaster draft/trade).
Lastly... you are right that he didn't set the organization for future success, one reason I wanted to see him removed as GM a year before he was let go. But I get a lot of the moves, when you think you have a contender, you make the deals, especially when they are mostly 2nd round picks or later (the only 1st round pick that was delt was for Olli, not mentioning the Cammalleri one because it was recouped by Tanguay).
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"With a coach and a player, sometimes there's just so much respect there that it's boils over"
-Taylor Hall
Darryl was IMO one of the best player coaches we had since Crispy.
Knew exactly what he had to work with and what he could sdqueeze out of a guy.
Guys playing without an edge, playing hurt , intimidated need a master motivator.
Iginla was his absolute best under Darryl and after Darryl was gone Iginla was and is not even today half the player he was back then.
SO many guys from that 04 team were playing WAY over their heads yet Darryl knew how to motivate them all to play as a team and not a bunch of individuals.......if we had been lucky enough back then to have the farm depth we have today wed have 2 cups maybe 3 by now.
Its exciting what were building toward right now .....nobody even sees it coming yet but this Flames team we watched this year compete every f'ing game is going to be great.
Hard to see with video, but at the 10 second mark, Warrener with the helmet throw, Sutter with the fist pump at Warrener after Gelinas' goal in Game 6 of that series.
You never heard back then how great a coach Sutter was from the players...because, as this article says, he pushed all the buttons, and ramped up those efforts in the playoffs, to the point of making the most sane person, insane (ala Conny). Had to believe he did the same in LA a few years back.
Hard to forget that rant at the officials too in those playoffs.
Most critical mistake the Flames owners made was not letting him back as coach after Playfair, as Sutter wanted. The players did not respond to Playfair and he lost the room. So, Sutter had to find a coach since he wasn't allowed back behind the bench. Keenan was a shell of the coach he once was and didn't turn out the way Sutter wanted (though Keenan's freewheeling style almost worked).
Had Sutter been behind the bench for those two years post Playfair, almost a guarantee the Flames win a couple rounds each of those years.
Bottom line, Sutter was the best coach the Flames had, in addition to his GM work, bringing in the late season peices in 2004, and bringing the credibility and honor back to the franchise.
Enough credit can't be given to him for that...the stories that players have are scratching the surface, and part of that private persona (as far as media goes) is part of what makes him respected and successful.
Last edited by browna; 04-23-2014 at 08:02 PM.
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48 HOURS???? Where is this CP Kool Aid Stand? and where do I line up ? While you can argue that "Big D" was arguably the best coach the flames had, you could just as easily give him the title as our flat out worst GM, he made 7 first round picks (well 6 because of the Jokinen debacle) and we netted a total of 2 NHL'ers in the FIRST round, remember Kris Chucko, Matt Pelech because I don't. He did find us our greatest franchise goalie in Kipper, but how many goalies did we develop on our own? ZERO, James Spratt, Kevin Lalande and Matt Keetley all flushed down the drain. He might be in the NHL record books for trading nearly every single second round pick he ever had. He left us with so many No Trade Clauses that we had to giveaway Regehr just to get some cap space.
Darryl did make a few good trades here and there and he did find the odd diamond in the rough (Brodie) but I am going to judge his time as GM by the way he left it- A hot mess!
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It would have been interesting if the Flames had renewed Craig Button's contract in 2003 and kept him in place to help Darryl take care of the details, as he had been doing since hiring DS in December 2002. The result would have been an arrangement similar to what Colorado has with Sherman and Roy (though obviously without the Sakic role). Button showed early on a willingness to work with and cater to his coach's suggestions, e.g. the Donovan and Ference trades. No reason to believe he wouldn't have agreed to a new arrangement with Darryl as a kind of co-GM, if it meant he could keep his job.
We'll never know, but I think Button and Darryl might've complemented each other well for a while. Neither were great GMs on their own, clearly. Each had their own strengths--Button had a reasonably good eye for young talent, even if it showed through trades and free agent signings more than at the draft table. Darryl lacked any kind of long term vision and, though he struck gold early, really hit the skids the more consolidated power. It would have been worth trying if only because it would have kept DS behind the bench indefinitely.
Button's great eye for young talent did wonders for Tampa , Anaheim and Atlanta, when he got rid of St.Louis, Gigure and Savard for absolutely nothing.
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